# Gun control wouldn't have stopped what happened in Vegas...should we do it anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873 "2017-10-03T15:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/681 "2017-10-14T14:04:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They \*did \*ban it. Eighteenth Amendment, Volstead Act. Hear of those? You mean the amendment that was passed because a majority of Americans approved of the measure which was ratified by all but two states? And then was repealed via the same ratification process? Nobody is saying we should repeal the Second Amendment. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TAKE YOUR GUNS. OK? We’ve have a lot of success over the years in lowering the number of people hurt or killed due to drunk driving. We’ve had a lot of success in reducing exposure to second-hand smoke and lowering smoking rates. None of the measures involved banning the lawful consumption of alcohol or cigarettes. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/682 "2017-10-14T16:33:59Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Nobody is saying we should repeal the Second Amendment. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TAKE YOUR GUNS. OK? > **[Michael Moore demands repeal of ‘ancient and outdated’ Second Amendment](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/4/michael-moore-demands-repeal-of-ancient-and-outdat/)** > > Filmmaker Michael Moore says it’s time for Congress to repeal the Second Amendment and replace it with something that establishes a “right of all people to be free from gun violence.” > **[Why It's Time to Repeal the Second Amendment](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/why-its-time-to-repeal-the-second-amendment-95622/)** > > Why Second Amendment must be repealed, and it is the essence of American democracy to say so. > **[Opinion | Repeal the Second Amendment (Published 2017)](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/guns-second-amendment-nra.html)** > > It sounds like political Mission Impossible. But it’s the only meaningful way to stop the killing. > **[Kurt Eichenwald: Let’s Repeal the Second Amendment](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/politics/2013/01/kurt-eichenwald-lets-repeal-second-amendment)** > > The amendment has nothing—nothing—to do with modern America. We need to get rid of it and try again with an amendment that makes sense. > **[Repeal the Second Amendment](https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2013/02/12/repeal-second-amendment-154745)** > > Though we cannot create an absolutely safe world, we can create a safer world. > **[Common sense calls for repeal of Second Amendment](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/common-sense-calls-for-repeal-of-second-amendment/)** > > I don’t believe the Second Amendment was ever intended to support the kind of gun craziness we contend with today, but since it’s always used to ward off any common-sense gun reforms, maybe we ought to just fix the Constitution... Daily Kos has all these “ban the bump stocks” articles under the rubric of [“Repeal or Amend Second Amendment”](https://www.dailykos.com/blog/Repeal%20the%20Second%20Amendment%20RSA) Just a small selection. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/683 "2017-10-14T20:15:00Z")
The problem with “gun control” is that it’s actually people control: telling people that they can’t have some kinds of guns or gun accessories because they’re just too dangerous in the hands of the [del]sheep[/del] [del]proles[/del] [del]great unwashed[/del] [del]hoi polloi[/del] [del]plebs[/del] [del]subjects[/del] [del]masses[/del] public. You might say, so what’s wrong with that? The problem with _some_ gun control is that it firmly establishes that firearms are just another thing that falls under the general [police power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power_(United_States_constitutional_law)) of the government- the government’s general power to pass laws regulating, restricting or banning anything that isn’t constitutionally protected as a fundamental right. Our ancestors fought a rebellion against the British government precisely because the British parliament is sovereign and therefore has an unbounded police power limited only by the conscience of the m.p.'s. And our ancestors created a constitution and a Bill of Rights to explicitly declare that some things are outside the purview of a 51% vote of a legislature. Owning guns cannot be a check upon potential tyranny\* if they could be banned any time the government they’re supposed to be a check upon wanted to. \*such as the State of California banning carry so that the Black Panthers could no longer resist police brutality. Or a local sheriff turning voters away from a polling place, which sparked the “Battle of Athens” in 1946. Or New York passing the Sullivan Act, more or less to ensure that the gangs that were paying protection money to the political machine would have unarmed victims to rob. Based on comments in this and other gun threads, I gather the impression that a great many people consider guns being a check upon government to be an archaism. We can only dearly hope that _isn’t_ true yet, because if it is than our country has a much bigger problem than gun massacres. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/684 "2017-10-14T20:15:17Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/4/michael-moore-demands-repeal-of-ancient-and-outdat/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/4/michael-moore-demands-repeal-of-ancient-and-outdat/) > [Why It's Time to Repeal the Second Amendment](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-its-time-to-repeal-the-second-amendment-right-bear-arms-20160613) > [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/guns-second-amendment-nra.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/guns-second-amendment-nra.html) > [Kurt Eichenwald: Let’s Repeal the Second Amendment | Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/politics/2013/01/kurt-eichenwald-lets-repeal-second-amendment) > [Repeal the Second Amendment](https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/repeal-second-amendment) > [Common sense calls for repeal of Second Amendment | The Seattle Times](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/common-sense-calls-for-repeal-of-second-amendment/) > Daily Kos has all these “ban the bump stocks” articles under the rubric of [“Repeal or Amend Second Amendment”](https://www.dailykos.com/blog/Repeal%20the%20Second%20Amendment%20RSA) > > Just a small selection. and > **[Op-Ed: We don't need the 2nd Amendment — we need a real debate about guns](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-waters-second-amendment-constitution-gun-control-20171013-story.html)** > > Fifty-eight dead, nearly 500 injured, but our national debate will come through unscathed. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/685 "2017-10-14T21:08:18Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The problem with “gun control” is that it’s actually people control: telling people that they can’t have some kinds of guns or gun accessories because they’re just too dangerous in the hands of the [del]sheep[/del] [del]proles[/del] [del]great unwashed[/del] [del]hoi polloi[/del] [del]plebs[/del] [del]subjects[/del] [del]masses[/del] public. > > You might say, so what’s wrong with that? The problem with _some_ gun control is that it firmly establishes that firearms are just another thing that falls under the general [police power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power_(United_States_constitutional_law)) of the government- the government’s general power to pass laws regulating, restricting or banning anything that isn’t constitutionally protected as a fundamental right. Our ancestors fought a rebellion against the British government precisely because the British parliament is sovereign and therefore has an unbounded police power limited only by the conscience of the m.p.'s. And our ancestors created a constitution and a Bill of Rights to explicitly declare that some things are outside the purview of a 51% vote of a legislature. Owning guns cannot be a check upon potential tyranny\* if they could be banned any time the government they’re supposed to be a check upon wanted to. > > \*such as the State of California banning carry so that the Black Panthers could no longer resist police brutality. Or a local sheriff turning voters away from a polling place, which sparked the “Battle of Athens” in 1946. Or New York passing the Sullivan Act, more or less to ensure that the gangs that were paying protection money to the political machine would have unarmed victims to rob. > > Based on comments in this and other gun threads, I gather the impression that a great many people consider guns being a check upon government to be an archaism. We can only dearly hope that _isn’t_ true yet, because if it is than our country has a much bigger problem than gun massacres. Gun control has to involve people. They fire the guns. They are the things that kill people, rather than say guns for instance, right? So the laws are trying to influence the intersection of people and guns, which society has found problematic at times. This is the way I see it anyway. Do gun fans feel that the best example of someone trying to control them in this world is over their guns? I’m trying to find some sympathy for gun owners in this but it’s very difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/686 "2017-10-14T23:09:48Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Do gun fans feel that the best example of someone trying to control them in this world is over their guns? The most emblematic perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/687 "2017-10-14T23:49:19Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The most emblematic perhaps. That’s a vague term. So maybe make it more detailed? What kind of freedom is it to kill someone else? You are not going to be defending anyone against any government I assume. Right? I think we’re all in the same boat. Our freedoms need to be preserved. And I think guns are the least of your worries and none of mine at all. The mentality of gun ownership at least here and in my mind as a solar panel for media, is an attempt to defend something invisible, both in their politics and in their psychology. Your guns will not prevent any of your fears though. Your fears have already come true. That’s the problem and the source of the angst and invective. But most people who live in large urban areas, maybe much larger than yours, never had a violent crime occur to them. So they are not filled with daydreams about pistol play. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/688 "2017-10-15T15:01:20Z")
Has this been posted yet? [A poll taken after the Las Vegas massacre](https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2492) shows a majority of Americans selecting the pro-gun control position on a number of questions. Even when restricted to Republicans or gun owners, a majority selects the pro-control answer. > [@](#): > > Consistent with every Quinnipiac University poll since February 2013, in the wake of the Sandy Hook Massacre, American voters support 94 - 5 percent requiring background checks for all gun purchases. Voters in gun households support universal background checks 93 - 6 percent… > 79 - 19 percent for a mandatory waiting period for all gun purchases; > 64 - 32 percent for a ban on the sale of assault weapons; > 86 - 12 percent for a ban of the sale of guns to people convicted of a violent crime; > 58 - 38 percent for stricter regulations on ammunition sales; > 64 - 34 percent for a ban on high-capacity magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. > [et cetera] ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/689 "2017-10-15T17:39:17Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Has this been posted yet? [A poll taken after the Las Vegas massacre](https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2492) shows a majority of Americans selecting the pro-gun control position on a number of questions. Even when restricted to Republicans or gun owners, a majority selects the pro-control answer. Well heck, with polling numbers like that, It’s a bit of a mystery how Hillary Clinton is not President. Any idea how that happened? Or why the Dems don’t control Congress? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/690 "2017-10-15T17:59:11Z")
Not everyone is a single-issue voter, and among those who are, guns aren’t always the single issue. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/691 "2017-10-15T18:06:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not everyone is a single-issue voter, and among those who are, guns aren’t always the single issue. So would you guess that most of those poll respondents care about the issue a lot or not very much? Would you guess that they understand the issue very well or no better than your average Doper (which is dismally-ignorant on the subject)? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/692 "2017-10-15T20:24:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well heck, with polling numbers like that, It’s a bit of a mystery how Hillary Clinton is not President. Any idea how that happened? Or why the Dems don’t control Congress? Because those numbers are in reaction to the Las Vegas shooting and thus meaningless except for that data point. This is common, everytime there is a mass shooting the polls change like this. In general Americans are in favor of mild gun control and against banning. Umm, “\*a ban of the sale of guns to people convicted of a violent crime” \*is already a law. Universal Background checks is mostly a law, except private sales. Mandatory waiting, ban on the sale of assault weapons, stricter regulations on ammunition sales and ban on high-capacity magazines that hold more than 10 rounds- are all law in CA, but have not affected violent crime stats in any way. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/693 "2017-10-15T20:27:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not everyone is a single-issue voter, and among those who are, guns aren’t always the single issue. Yes, by no means. But single issue “gun nuts” are a significant minority, while single issue “gun grabbers” are pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/694 "2017-10-16T01:48:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So would you guess that most of those poll respondents care about the issue a lot or not very much? Would you guess that they understand the issue very well or no better than your average Doper (which is dismally-ignorant on the subject)? Gunnists repeat over and over and over that the public opposes gun control. The poll shows the opposite. Clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/695 "2017-10-16T01:56:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Gunnists repeat over and over and over that the public opposes gun control. The poll shows the opposite. Clear enough? Lying with polls is trivially simple and a standard move from playbook of influencing public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/696 "2017-10-16T02:31:47Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Gunnists repeat over and over and over that the public opposes gun control. The poll shows the opposite. Clear enough? That poll shows the public reacting to a terrible tragedy. Here are some better polls, showing how opiniosn trend: > **[Guns](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx)** > > Do you have a gun in your home? In general, do you feel that the laws covering the sale of firearms should be made more strict, less strict, or kept as they are now? Do you think there should or should not be a law that would ban the possession of... You see, the public does slightly want more gun control- unspecified. It seems Universal background checks are popular. That gun control would not effect mass shooting much. They are _strongly_ agains banning all handguns. Mostly \*against \*strong assault rifle bans. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2017, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/697 "2017-10-16T13:03:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Lying with polls is trivially simple and a standard move from playbook of influencing public opinion. May we quote you on that the next time you cite one? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/698 "2017-10-16T15:27:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, “\*a ban of the sale of guns to people convicted of a violent crime” \*is already a law. > > Universal Background checks is mostly a law, except private sales. You do see the slight problem there, right? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Mandatory waiting, ban on the sale of assault weapons, stricter regulations on ammunition sales and ban on high-capacity magazines that hold more than 10 rounds- are all law in CA, but have not affected violent crime stats in any way. Gun violence across California dropped 56% from 5,500 gun deaths in 1993 to 2,935 in 2010, even as the state’s population increased from 30 million to 37 million. During that time, gun deaths declined by 29% for the nation overall. You care to revise your assessment? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/699 "2017-10-16T15:47:38Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Gun violence across California dropped 56% from 5,500 gun deaths in 1993 to 2,935 in 2010, even as the state’s population increased from 30 million to 37 million. > During that time, gun deaths declined by 29% for the nation overall. > > You care to revise your assessment? [Total US “firearm violence”](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf): 1993: 1,548,000 - rate: 7.3 2010: 426,100 - rate: 1.8 So - a 76% rate reduction for the US. Couldn’t find the numbers for CA to compare - maybe you can? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/700 "2017-10-16T16:01:38Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [Total US “firearm violence”](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf): > > 1993: 1,548,000 - rate: 7.3 > 2010: 426,100 - rate: 1.8 > > So - a 76% rate reduction for the US. Couldn’t find the numbers for CA to compare - maybe you can? a) The first numbers (1,548,000 and 426,000) are total fatal and non-fatal firearm violence. The second numbers (7.3 and 1.8) are for non-fatal firearm violence only. b) The numbers don’t include accidental shootings, suicide attempts etc. Crime overall has declined, and fewer people should be dying from gunshot wounds due to advances in healthcare, GPS/navigation, improved first-response times, and better medical technology overall. But overall firearm deaths have not declined, and in fact looking at the overall trend, deaths have generally increased since 2000 or so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=36)