# Gun control wouldn't have stopped what happened in Vegas...should we do it anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873 "2017-10-03T15:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/121 "2017-10-04T04:59:16Z")
It is entirely relevant to include suicide, as guns make it far more likely for the person to succeed on the first attempt - unsuccessful suicides very rarely try again. [From the above-cited article:](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts) > [@](#): > > “Time is really key to preventing suicide in a suicidal person,” Harkavy-Friedman said. “First, the crisis won’t last, so it will seem less dire and less hopeless with time. Second, it opens the opportunity for someone to help or for the suicidal person to reach out to someone to help. That’s why limiting access to lethal means is so powerful.” > She added, “\*f we keep the method of suicide away from a person when they consider it, in that moment they will not switch to another method. It doesn’t mean they never will. But in that moment, their thinking is very inflexible and rigid. So it’s not like they say, ‘Oh, this isn’t going to work. I’m going to try something else.’ They generally can’t adjust their thinking, and they don’t switch methods.” Also see charts #10 and #11 in the above linked article. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/122 "2017-10-04T05:00:44Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > WT actual F are you going on about. What part of, ‘you’re wrong’ was unclear? Your claim was that the CDC is prevented from conducting any and all gun research. That’s wrong. They are prohibited from gun control advocacy. What’s telling is that you equate the two, calling the promotion of gun control “proper research”. So, I challenge you, cite the legislation or rule that supports your claim that the CDC is prevented from conducting any and all gun research. You can’t, because you’re wrong. To defeat this claim I would need to find a single CDC funded item after the Dickey Amendment, correct? [Here is one:](http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/6/4/263.full) > [@](#): > > This research was supported in part by the grants from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Institute of Justice, the Open Society Institute, and the Joyce Foundation. You’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/123 "2017-10-04T05:01:09Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Sorry, we can’t help you if you insist on thinking that guns make you safer. They don’t. > Ever stop to think that you survived only because a handgun wasn’t involved? > What would a handgun do that a home security system wouldn’t? They do. Yes, there was a biased and flawed study that showed that having a gun in the house could increase danger. Based upon many flawed assumptions, and selective choices of data. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/124 "2017-10-04T05:06:19Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The gun nutters are so scared of what they’ll find if gun violence was properly researched, they prohibit the CDC from any and all such research. This is not true. What was prohibited was again deliberately doing a biased “study” with the outcome already decided. [http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/12/why-we-cant-trust-the-cdc-with-gun-research-000340](http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/12/why-we-cant-trust-the-cdc-with-gun-research-000340) “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.” > **[Why The Centers For Disease Control Should Not Receive Gun Research Funding](https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/02/12/why-the-centers-for-disease-control-should-not-receive-gun-research-funding/#15a662e8282d)** > > Obama's directive would end a virtual 17 year ban which stipulates that none of CDC’s federal financing can be used to advocate or promote gun control. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/125 "2017-10-04T05:30:58Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > So you admit that your proposals won’t fix the issue you use as justification for them, admit that they will hurt law-abiding citizens, but still want to do them anyway? And at the same time you wonder why pro-gun people won’t accept your proposals? This is such a simple, and eloquent, post that I think it bears repeating. Someone who wants to ban firearms wishes to use a current event to promote the same ol’ ideas as if many voters haven’t previously/repeatedly decided that the 2nd Amendment is about self-defense and a host of other stuff. It’s pretty much a case of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/126 "2017-10-04T05:34:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This is not true. What was prohibited was again deliberately doing a biased “study” with the outcome already decided. > [http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/12/why-we-cant-trust-the-cdc-with-gun-research-000340](http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/12/why-we-cant-trust-the-cdc-with-gun-research-000340) > “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.” > > [Why The Centers For Disease Control Should Not Receive Gun Research Funding](https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/02/12/why-the-centers-for-disease-control-should-not-receive-gun-research-funding/#15a662e8282d) Well, the first link shows an opinion piece written by Chris Cox: > [@](#): > > Chris Cox is the executive director of the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action. > Authors: > Chris Cox …I don’t think he can be called unbiased, do you? The second article is written by Larry Bell, another opinion piece, and according to his bio: > [@](#): > > I have recently written a new book titled “Climate of Corruption: Politics and Power Behind the Global Warming Hoax” …somehow I doubt his expertise in matters statistical. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/127 "2017-10-04T06:57:08Z")
[quote=“DragonAsh, post:84, topic:797873”] But anyway, if you want incidents of intentional homicides? With levels of gun ownership? Sure, we have that: Intentional homicides per 100,000 / estimated guns per capita US: 4.88 / 90 UK: 0.92 / 6.6 Japan: 0.31 / 0.6 / [QUOTE] I looked at your figures and saw “Japan .31/.6”, and thought to myself there is no way Japan has .6 guns per person. And sure enough, checking the wiki source you seem to have cited it’s not “per capita” it’s “guns per 100 people”. Nitpick, but there you go. The comparative ratios are still useful nontheless. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/128 "2017-10-04T11:36:53Z")
In an era where “real” news networks are spreading FakeNews, I get my [real news from a comedy show](https://youtu.be/hw1RrmlrTtM?t=43s). According to FauxNews and the FauxWhite House, “now is not the time to be talking about guns.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/129 "2017-10-04T12:00:18Z")
It seems nuts to me to think that everything would have been the same if the shooter hadn’t had bump stocks. After the first few moments of chaos, everyone was running for cover. In those chaotic few moments, automatic or near-automatic levels of rate of fire were logically more deadly than semi-auto rates of fire, and after those first moments, most who were able and mobile were finding or had found cover. How could rate of fire not matter when it comes to how many people are killed in a mass shooting, especially when the target is a crowd? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/130 "2017-10-04T12:10:39Z")
Excellent post, **wolfpup**. I chalk this up to another example of American exceptionalism. We fetishize guns, which earns us periodic mass shootings. Similar to how we spend more on health care, yet get worse results. Just more and more signs of cracks in the empire… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/131 "2017-10-04T12:35:52Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The CDC conducted gun research in 1913 and 1915 under directives from President Obama. Umm … did you misspell _Wilson_? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/132 "2017-10-04T12:36:31Z")
Here’s a thought: maybe by reducing the availability of guns in the population and perhaps by making guns less easy to obtain, maybe, just maybe we would see American society become a little – or even a lot – less violent. To some degree, guns are an extension and representation of our culture’s endorsement of violent means to resolve conflict. We also see this tendency reflected in our casual willingness to use our military to resolve conflicts abroad and our embrace of capital punishment to exact vengeance upon domestic criminals. Perhaps by taking away our guns, it might require the average person to rely a little more on gray matter to resolve disputes or inner turmoil instead of just reaching for a pistol that end scores of lives and leave thousands of survivors grieving for decades with just a few squeezes of a trigger. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/133 "2017-10-04T12:45:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It seems nuts to me to think that everything would have been the same if the shooter hadn’t had bump stocks. After the first few moments of chaos, everyone was running for cover. In those chaotic few moments, automatic or near-automatic levels of rate of fire were logically more deadly than semi-auto rates of fire, and after those first moments, most who were able and mobile were finding or had found cover. > > How could rate of fire not matter when it comes to how many people are killed in a mass shooting, especially when the target is a crowd? An earlier poster noted that semi-auto fire might be a little slower but its more deadly because it can be aimed. Automatic fire is spray and pray. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/134 "2017-10-04T12:46:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Umm … did you misspell _Wilson_? I made a mistake there in my old age. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/135 "2017-10-04T12:52:00Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Here’s a thought: maybe by reducing the availability of guns in the population and perhaps by making guns less easy to obtain, maybe, just maybe we would see American society become a little – or even a lot – less violent. To some degree, guns are an extension and representation of our culture’s endorsement of violent means to resolve conflict. We also see this tendency reflected in our casual willingness to use our military to resolve conflicts abroad and our embrace of capital punishment to exact vengeance upon domestic criminals. Perhaps by taking away our guns, it might require the average person to rely a little more on gray matter to resolve disputes or inner turmoil instead of just reaching for a pistol that end scores of lives and leave thousands of survivors grieving for decades with just a few squeezes of a trigger. If you want to attack our culture of violence , wouldn’t it make more sense to go right to its source? We love violent movies, music and video games. On some FPS, we are free to blow things away to our hearts content with no repercussions. Even people who have never fired a real gun are trained in the act of murder. If like to see a study finding correlation between mass killing and the rise of violent culture. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/136 "2017-10-04T12:53:10Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Here’s a thought: maybe by reducing the availability of guns in the population and perhaps by making guns less easy to obtain, maybe, just maybe we would see American society become a little – or even a lot – less violent. … Another excellent post. But who says Americans WANT less violence? We LIKE being the bullies of the world. And we elected a president who advocated violence at his rallies… ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/137 "2017-10-04T12:54:12Z")
**CHICAGO!** (drops mic) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/138 "2017-10-04T12:57:10Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > There is zero evidence that he openly carried the guns into the MB. Please cite where I claimed there was. Trick question, as I didn’t. My response is only to all of those wondering how he managed to “smuggle” all these guns into his room. He didn’t have to. He could have carried them openly up to his room, with no one saying a word to him about it. I actually don’t think he carried them. My thought on how he got them up to his room: Bellhop. (How shitty would it be to have been that guy) If a bag had come open, and a bunch of guns and ammo came rolling out, hotel response would have been, “Let me help you with that.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/139 "2017-10-04T13:17:13Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > An earlier poster noted that semi-auto fire might be a little slower but its more deadly because it can be aimed. Automatic fire is spray and pray. XT did make that claim, but was refuted, based on the fact that you don’t need to aim for this sort of situation. You may be barely able to hit the broad side of a barn, but when that barn is made of people, you can’t actually miss. He was firing into a crowd of people half the size of a football field. That was his target. Any hit in that target is deadly. More bullets going into the crowd over a short period of time is going to do more damage than fewer bullets going into the crowd. More bullets is more dead and wounded. Spray and pray works just fine into crowds. He also had rifles in his room that would have been semi-automatic, that I assume were intended for sniping targets once the crowd had cleared out to no longer present an easy target. These would have been deadly to anyone who he was aiming at, once he switched to that method of firing, after the easy crowds had dispersed. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/140 "2017-10-04T13:19:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have to stop you there because in reality the system is inadequate, by design and by negligence. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/lack-of-data-makes-it-hard-for-background-checks-system-to-work-properly/2014/08/28/d166c1b4-2ed8-11e4-be9e-60cc44c01e7f\_story.html?utm\_term=.738f0c379315](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/lack-of-data-makes-it-hard-for-background-checks-system-to-work-properly/2014/08/28/d166c1b4-2ed8-11e4-be9e-60cc44c01e7f_story.html?utm_term=.738f0c379315) > BTW I do think that while Americans do have the right to own guns, what I can see is that there is even less adequate ways to know how many guns a law abiding citizen is piling up, when at the same time there are other issues with individuals that should limit them from making such pile ups. I totally agree with you that the current system for Federal background checks is flawed and inadequate. But a system DOES exist and (presumably) CAN be improved. Sadly, I believe that the shooter in LV would likely have been approved for all his firearm purchases, regardless of how thorough the vetting was. Also, we know that many firearms used in criminal activities were stolen or purchased directly from another individual (including at gun shows), thus completely avoiding the background checks required when purchasing from an FFL. I continue to believe that the strict regulation of ammunition sales, along with restrictions on the manufacture or possession of propellants, may be the only hope we have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=8)