# Gun Control
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 22, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485 "2002-03-22T03:48:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Tyklfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyklfe)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/1 "2002-03-22T03:48:48Z")
Thank God somebody has their [head](http://www.gsusignal.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/03/19/3c96ba248ff76) screwed on straight.
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### Author:  [@Tyklfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyklfe)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/2 "2002-03-22T03:50:13Z")
I’m gonna be away for a little while so don’t get too upset if I don’t say more right away…
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### Author:  [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/3 "2002-03-22T03:54:59Z")
You’re being unreasonable. In Britain, where their violent crime rate is rapidly rising and more and more criminals and police are using guns, the Home Office offers the following advice:
> [@](#):
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> If you wake to hear the sound of an intruder, only you can decide how best to handle the situation. You may want to lie quietly to avoid attracting attention to yourself, in the hope that they will leave. Or you may feel more confident if you switch on the lights and make a lot of noise by moving about. Even if you’re on your own, call out loudly to an imaginary companion – most burglars will flee empty-handed rather than risking a confrontation. Ring the police as soon as it’s safe for you to do so. A telephone extension in your bedroom will make you feel more secure as it allows you to call the police immediately, without alerting the intruder.
Obviously, free men should be pepared to cower in their beds or emulate the homeless by talking loudly to an imaginary friend, not to defend their lives, homes, and families from an intruder.
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### Author:  [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/4 "2002-03-22T03:55:04Z")
Wow, what a compelling, original article. Perhaps one day the American public will hear this lone voice crying in the wilderness and take pity as she is devoured by wolves because the jackbooted thugs took away her assault rifle.
Next up: Freshman English student writes impassioned term paper opposing death penalty.
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### Author:  [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/5 "2002-03-22T03:57:15Z")
[QUOTE]
\*Originally posted by minty green \*
\*\*Wow, what a compelling, original article. Perhaps one day the American public will hear this lone voice crying in the wilderness and take pity as she is devoured by wolves because the jackbooted thugs took away her assault rifle.
[QUOTE]
At that point, we won’t be able hear anything because we’ll all be too busy yelling at imaginary friends to scare away burglers.
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### Author:  [@Tyklfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyklfe)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/6 "2002-03-22T04:11:46Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \*
> \*\*Obviously, free men should be pepared to cower in their beds or emulate the homeless by talking loudly to an imaginary friend, not to defend their lives, homes, and families from an intruder. \*\*
Well I know that I find it reassuring that when somebody brakes into my house the best defense I have is shouting out “Martha, fetch my slippers Martha!”
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### Author:  [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/7 "2002-03-22T05:04:09Z")
OK, let’s see:
Paragraph 1 - Liberals are bad people.
Bias firmly established.
Paragraph 2 - militia meant the “whole of the people”, and “people” meant the individual
“check”
Paragraph 3 - Rosie O’Donnell is a hypocrite
“check”
Paragraph 4 - Exaggerates O’Donnell’s complaint with Selleck
“check” (well, who cares anyway)
Paragraph 5 - O’Donnell is a double dog hypocrite, China murders 20 million
“check” (what tied that paragraph together?)
Paragraph 6 - Hitler was a bad man
“check” (Duh!)
Paragraph 7 - “These numbers should interest groups concerned with peace, tranquility, and liberty”
“check”
Paragraph 8 - Citizens of the UK have high murder rates, despite gun control.
Really? Cite? Oh, Scotland Yard is hiring.
And finally, Paragraph 9 - Criminals? Where did that come from? The rest of the article was about people protecting themselves from their government (like the second amendment provides). And then the kicker - **"Race, gender, and gun control are the tools of the liberal to divide us."**
Huh? What the hell was that? From my own backyard, no less. Scary.
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### Author:  [@Mersavets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mersavets)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/8 "2002-03-22T05:06:06Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \*
> **You’re being unreasonable. In Britain, where their violent crime rate is rapidly rising and more and more criminals and police are using guns**
I swore I would never be so anal; but cite please? Please don’t offer anecdotal proof. Statistics if you have them. I remember the statistics showed a slight increase in crime when I was there a few years ago but that was because the government changed reporting and methods used to analyse the figures.
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### Author:  [@Tsubaki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tsubaki)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/9 "2002-03-22T09:27:26Z")
Australia and Japan have restrictive gun laws, and the level of crime is lower than the States.
[http://www.iansa.org/documents/research/2000/aussie\_guns.htm](http://www.iansa.org/documents/research/2000/aussie_guns.htm)
(shows statistics of gun crime since stricter laws were introduced in Australia)
Although, I will admit that in Japan’s case its not JUST gun restrictions which have resulted in the low crime rate. Forced confessions, beatings from the cops, and a high sentencing rate mean that people are too SCARED to commit a crime. BUT I still think that having gun restrictions HELPS keep the crime down.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/10 "2002-03-22T10:25:35Z")
Oh good. Another gun control thread where uncited references to the UK crop up. How unusual.
Is there some version of Godwin’s law that relates to gun control threads? If not, there should be - how about “any gun related thread becomes invalid as soon as unsubstantiated quotes about levels of violence in a completely different country are used”. In honour of the op we could call it Tyklfe’s Law.
And out of interest, can someone tell me what’s wrong with the advice given?
> [@](#):
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> If you wake to hear the sound of an intruder, only you can decide how best to handle the situation
Seems fair to me. For most people they’d probably pop down the stairs carrying their favourite pointy stick of choice, but for the elderly or vulnerable pretending that there’s someone else about in the house seems like a good idea.
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### Author:  [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/11 "2002-03-22T13:44:06Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Tsubaki \*
> **Australia and Japan have restrictive gun laws, and the level of crime is lower than the States.**
Wrong, at least with respect to Australia. See [this summary of the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey](http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html). The Australian _gun_ crime rate may be lower than the States’, but the Australian crime rate _in general_ is higher than in the U.S.:
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> The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations… Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized.
I gotta hit the shower; I’ll be back later today with statistics on British gun crime.
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### Author:  [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/12 "2002-03-22T15:00:48Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Mersavets \*
> \*\*
> I swore I would never be so anal; but cite please? Please don’t offer anecdotal proof. Statistics if you have them. I remember the statistics showed a slight increase in crime when I was there a few years ago but that was because the government changed reporting and methods used to analyse the figures. \*\*
Well, theres: [http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/statistics15.htm](http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/statistics15.htm)
The International Crime Victim Survey for 2001 also showed an increase in British violent crime rates leading up to it, but I can’t find a direct copy (it’s cited in roughly 928483 places, however, which makes searching for it fun). I’ll look around later and try to find some better sites, I found a nice page with summary data for the US crime rates from 1960-2000 but nothing like that for the UK. With the second-highest violent crime rate in the first world (just behind Australia), I can understand why the Brits don’t seem to make their stats easy to find.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/13 "2002-03-22T15:07:33Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \*
> \*\* With the second-highest violent crime rate in the first world (just behind Australia), I can understand why the Brits don’t seem to make their stats easy to find. \*\*
You do realise that if you’re going to start throwing this logic around, you’re arguing in favour of gun control? After all, as Britian’s so much more violent than the US it should have a higher run of gun crime. Australia too.
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### Author:  [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/14 "2002-03-22T15:08:37Z")
Counting down 'til Kellerman or Lott is cited…
please, pretty please could there be something new introduced in this thread
signed,
a firm believer that gun control is hitting what you aim at…
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### Author:  [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/15 "2002-03-22T18:47:02Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \*
> \*\*You do realise that if you’re going to start throwing this logic around, you’re arguing in favour of gun control? After all, as Britian’s so much more violent than the US it should have a higher run of gun crime. Australia too. \*\*
You need to explain the chain of reasoning you use, since it’s not exactly clear. I’m not at all sure how ‘Britain is more violent than the US’ means that ‘Britain should have more of a specific subtype of violent crime than the US’, and why you think that I would advocate forming a more dangerous society because of this. You should bear in mind that I don’t have a phobia about guns, so simply repeating ‘guns are bad’ isn’t going to cut it.
I’m also not really aware that women raped by a man using brute strength feel better about it whan women raped by a man using a gun, for example, but perhaps you could cite something? It seems rather odd that, despite the victim disarmament crowd’s cries of ‘ban guns to reduce violence’, they always seem to shy away from looking at violent crimes, and instead concentrate on specific subsets of the violence they’re allegedly opposed to.
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### Author:  [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/16 "2002-03-22T19:05:26Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \*
> \*\*Oh good. Another gun control thread where uncited references to the UK crop up. How unusual.
Well, I’ve given a reasonable cite (from the UK government) when asked, and will dig up a better set of crime statistics later.
> [@](#):
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> And out of interest, can someone tell me what’s wrong with the advice given?
What, you mean you missed the complete lack of respect for human dignity, life, and freedom expressed in it? A free man is not forced to cower in his bed and rely on the good intentions of the person who just invaded his home.
> [@](#):
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> Seems fair to me. For most people they’d probably pop down the stairs carrying their favourite pointy stick of choice,
Except that that arming yourself before you ‘pop down the stairs’ has been construed as premeditation, thus leading to anything you do not being self-defense in at least some cases in England. I’m not sure how widespread this is (I can go dig up archived news for one or two cases), but I do know that there isn’t a simple law stating that ‘if they break into your house, it’s self defense’. Legally, the Home Office’s advice is sound since there really isn’t much protection from you if you do have to kill or injure someone in self defense, so cowering or yelling are really your only choices if you don’t want to end up for a lengthy stay in the courts and possibly jail.
And why is carrying a weapon that’s less effective for the victim, like a ‘pointy stick’ good, but carrying a weapon that is more effective, such as a gun, bad? If you think that a young, healthy man has the right to defend his home with deadly force, why doesn’t a much smaller women, or handicapped man, or older person have the same right? The means are certainly available to do so.
> [@](#):
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> but for the elderly or vulnerable pretending that there’s someone else about in the house seems like a good idea.
If they don’t have any effective means of self defense they may as well cower in bed or try to fool an attacker. If they were not denied an effective means of self-defense, though, then they wouldn’t be vulnerable in the first place.
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### Author:  [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/17 "2002-03-22T20:40:56Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by BF \*
> \*\*Counting down 'til Kellerman or Lott is cited…
> \*\*
I’d love to, but my copy of “More Guns, Less Crime” is at home! I’ll see what I can do for you in a couple of hours. 😃
–==the sax man==–
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### Author:  [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/18 "2002-03-22T21:34:27Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by minty green \*
> \*\*Wow, what a compelling, original article. Perhaps one day the American public will hear this lone voice crying in the wilderness and take pity as she is devoured by wolves because the jackbooted thugs took away her assault rifle.
>
> Next up: Freshman English student writes impassioned term paper opposing death penalty. \*\*
That’s just what I thought as well. Clichéd, for us at least, but from the heart.
[Here](http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,547561,00.html) you go **Gary** :
> [@](#):
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> Home Office figures show that there were 4,019 crimes in which handguns were used last year, an increase of more than 9 percent from the previous year. The statistics indicate that handgun crime is at its highest since 1993.
So, a general ban went into effect in the UK in 1996, yet we see gun violence rising to levels greater than when the ban went into effect.
I especially like this bit:
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> As a result of the latest statistics, the Association of Chief Police Officers’ firearms committee has requested that Home Secretary David Blunkett review gun laws and consider a ban on the possession of replica weapons in public.
Well hell! Getting rid of the fake guns will definitely lower gun violence! :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/19 "2002-03-23T00:02:54Z")
**Gary K:** I’ll second the motion for a Gun Control Godwin eqivalent, as long as the law is impartial. Gun prohibitionists cannot cite any country other than their own in making a case for more or less restrictions _in their own country._
As to the OP: c’mon. Really. We can do better than half-baked editorials (regardless of how well intentioned they may be). I felt like chastising some folks for piling onto the OP the way they have, but on second thought, we’re all growed-up in this here forum. If you post foolishness to make a case, be prepared to take your lumps.
FTR: I am firmly pro-gun and pro-rights where guns are concerned. I also like to think that I’m honest enough to call a spade a spade. As such, I ain’t gonna touch the OP with a keyboard with a 10 foot cable.
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### Author:  [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2002, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control/99485/20 "2002-03-23T05:57:42Z")
I own a gun, so you may assume what my position is here, but I am aghast at the comments below that poorly edited article, 100% in glowing praise of the author. I know full well what the First Amendment says, but this seems to be fully against the spirit of that Amendment. I KNOW there must be dissention, even at Georgia State! But is it being stifled? Hmmmm… Didn’t Hitler also stifle free press and dissenting opinions??? Hmmm???
A position on this issue should be stated with a heck of a lot less rhetoric and sarcasm.
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