# Gun + Fear = Freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980 "2004-07-26T20:54:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/61 "2004-07-29T13:48:39Z")
More than _what_? The UK. Which is what you think is ‘right’. Why are you right and the US not? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/62 "2004-07-29T13:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > The UK. Which is what you think is ‘right’. Where did I say that? I am asking **why** they are so _different_. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/63 "2004-07-29T15:09:50Z")
And I’m saying it doesn’t matter why the US isn’t the same as the UK. So long as we are talking about US domestic policy, there is absolutely no reason to investigate why we are ‘not like’ some other country nor any reason to attempt to become more like that other country. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/64 "2004-07-29T15:15:12Z")
You think that the high murder rate in the US compared to ther industrialised democracies is _simply not worth thinking about_? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/65 "2004-07-29T15:48:42Z")
I think that when deciding domestic policy for the US, including the repeal of an amendment, the only relevant issues are those within US borders. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/66 "2004-07-29T15:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I think that when deciding domestic policy for the US, including the repeal of an amendment, the only relevant issues are those within US borders. Is that not tautological? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/67 "2004-07-29T16:47:55Z")
Do you think that domestic policies within the UK should be decided based upon events that occur in countries that are not the UK? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/68 "2004-07-29T17:00:08Z")
Ah, I see what you mean. Yes. To _ignore_ the rest of the world and _simply not think about_ statistics such as how the UK murder rate compared with other industrialised democracies would be the intellectual equivalent of closing one’s eyes, putting one’s fingers in one’s ears and singing the national anthem at the top of one’s voice. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/69 "2004-07-29T22:48:35Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > So, if we agree that “confrontations” are largely just as regular in the two countries (and I would hope that we can avoid unnecessary pedantry here), _something_ is making them more _lethal_ in the US. How does “culture” do this? Do you understand what culture is? Culture is that whole of upbringing, training, technology, other influences, etc., which create the foundation for behaviour of individuals within an identifyable population. It’s your parents, you school, your heroes, your history, the movies you watch, entertainment you participate in, and everything else. Why does the US have football and the UK have rugby? Culture. Why does the US have baseball and the UK has cricket? Culture. Why does the US have more gun freedom than the UK? Culture. That said, I’m going to mention a few things I posted in the assault weapons thread [in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5117261&postcount=115). America has a permissive culture. Our kids are spoiled, our sexual compass is among the highest, and our movie industry is exploitive and damaging to our national psyche, especially where violence is concerned. What other nation could make a movie “The Texas Chainsaw massacre?” Does the Brit film industry have ANYTHING \*remotely \* similar??? Our movies glorify guns, glorify murder and murderers. They make a big thing about those who can shoot an unarmed human being at point blank range without so much as a blink. No emotion. The movies glorify this. There is a part of our population that is quite disturbed. In large part the legal gun owners are quite sane and stable, but we got kooks among gun owners, too. But they were kooks first; guns did not corrupt them, they are products of our over-permissive culture. I would prefer that our country would not be so liberal and permissive. This is different than promoting freedom, where rights come with responsibilities. We have Freedom in America. Most of us realize that freedom is not free, that there is a price to pay for freedom, and many of us do so willingly. Some of those born since WW II have come to think that freedom IS free, and in fact that it is owed them. They think their rights have no responsibilities, and that they can do whatever they want without regard for anyone else. This alone can account for a higher murder rate in the US. Life has become cheap, “others” have become unworthy, insignificant, if they get in the way of your goals. I think the freedom to own and carry a gun is an important freedom for a freedom-loving people. The responsibility that goes along with it is a heavy one. Responsible gun owners, like catsix have gotten training on their own. The NRA started out as an eduational organization, providing training in firearms safety and proficiency until 1968, when the current governmental assaults on guns began. They still do training, but have diverted much of their actions into preserving gun freedom, as their members desire. Too many Americans are raised to be irresponsible. Even our legal practice has shifted focus to “how can I get away with what I did?” (OJ Simpson as a prime example). With freedom comes responsibility. We, as a nation, are producing too many irresponsible people. This is how our culture has evolved, unfortunately. And it reflects the gun supporters’ claim: “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” How can we create more responsible Americans? Getting politicians out of school would be a good start. Reining in the film industry would be another. Taking away our reasonable freedoms will not help, it would only create a culture of victims and predators. If all Americans were as responsible as the gun owners I know, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/70 "2004-07-30T07:40:36Z")
I ask again: How does culture _kill rather than wound_? Does having American Football rather than rugby somehow _lead to vastly more deaths_? (Incidentally, the British media _is_ just as ‘liberal and permissive’. I saw the Texas Chansaw Massacre as a teen and thought it a comedy.) ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/71 "2004-07-30T22:18:10Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I ask again: How does culture _kill rather than wound_? I’m sorry that you can’t understand my pages of explanations about how a culture affects the actions of a people. I’m afraid I’m getting quite tired of explaining it. Does anyone else \*\*not \*\* understand what I’m saying? Does anyone understand? Am I being too “social scientist?” I tried to explain in in laymans’ terms. Maybe an introductory book or class in cultural anthropology would help you. People do what they do because of their culture. Americans kill more because their culture not only accepts this as a core value, but in fact encourages it. The rest were just things to demonstrate how different the culture of the UK and the US are. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/72 "2004-07-30T23:21:21Z")
Hey, I propose we take the argument from the following three threads: Guns are for Cowards?, Gun + Fear = Freedom? and What weapons are banned under the Assault Weapons ban? and tie them all together in this new thread: [What relationships exist between crime and firearm ownership? Should we do something?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=269061) I think the OP title describes our running arguments in all three threads, and if not we can expand on it, but it will be IN ONE PLACE! Snakespirit ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980/73 "2004-07-31T00:03:53Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Agreed, which is why there is a high murder rate in deprived urban areas and amongst drug gangs in the UK too, on a comparable scale. The US and UK are similarly crime-ridden, violent and drug-affected, but the murder rate per capita in the US is vastly higher. I think this quote of yours answers many of the questions you have been asking. Is the only difference between the deprived urban areas and drug gangs of the UK that those people have more guns? Or is there some behavioral differences which account for the added violence and indeed, the extra lethality? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-fear-freedom/256980.md?page=3)