# Gun Grabbers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014 "2013-09-16T23:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/181 "2013-09-18T13:05:41Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Joe Biden would tell us, like he did his wife, to get out on the porch and shoot 2 warning shots out of a double barrel chamber. Gotta love the guys ability to put his wife into a situation where she is now exposed, unarmed, and now has to take the time to reload. Of course, the story is a fabrication that he was attempting to use as a means to grab evil guns while letting harmless shotguns still be available. A sensible gun grabber. Not the most coherent thing I’ve ever read but OK, so, in your view, Joe Biden is a “gun grabber”. Anyone else? Also, has Mr. Biden successfully grabbed any guns? I’m guessing no, since mass killings still seem to be proceeding apace. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/182 "2013-09-18T13:15:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How did we start from standard gun nut stupidity about alcohol and end up at Joe Paterno? Paper towel tubes can be used as the barrel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/183 "2013-09-18T14:01:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And, by the way, rest assured that in Israel, wherever you go in public, there is a very high chance that there is someone (or a dozen someones) with a firearm within shouting distance. Yes - disciplined soldiers who have undergone basic training, not a bunch of yahoo Rambo wannabees. There is absolute nothing in common between the military culture we have here and your American gun bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/184 "2013-09-18T14:07:26Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Paper towel tubes can be used as the barrel. 😃 Awesome! I can use physics to prove it was impossible for Jill Biden to fire a warning shot without having to get into an impossible crouching position. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/185 "2013-09-18T14:12:01Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Maybe there should be a GED level (at least) test you should have to pass to consume alcohol. Nice example of an irrelevancy. If I drink in the privacy of my home, nobody else is affected. If I drink in public, suddenly, there are all sorts of additional restrictions on how intoxicated I can appear in public, whether or not I can be served, whether or not I can legally drive, etc. Those have nothing to do with restricting _my_ freedoms but protecting _other people_’s freedom from my behavior. In other words, you want carte blanche to act like a douchebag and have only shitty examples to back it up. ETA: I correct myself. You don’t just want carte blanche to act like a douchebag. You want people to thank you for it, too. Ok, fine. Thank you for acting like a douchebag. You set a wonderful example for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/186 "2013-09-18T15:41:45Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > We need some background checks for alcohol purchases. Maybe there should be a GED level (at least) test you should have to pass to consume alcohol. Clearly, no such test is required to register a guest account. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/187 "2013-09-18T17:32:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Such as? Well, before you buy a gun, you have to fill out a form and go through a background check. It is a federal offense punishable by ten years in jail to lie on those forms. There are a LOT of cases of people lying on those forms and noone ever follows up. A Milwaukee police chief once famously said he doesn’t chase paper, he chases criminals. The FBI and ATF don’t really prosecute a lot of these guys either. In my area something like 1% of the gun dealers account for over 50% of guns used in crimes. And its not like the guns from these dealers are all showing up in the gun dealer’s neighborhood, they are showing up all over the region. > [@](#): > > As Bricker has pointed out repeatedly, efficacy is not a requirement for legislation. But I don’t see why the existence of alternative _B_ means there’s no point in regulating _A_. Besides, the mechanism of a revolver limits it to fewer bullets than a semi-auto in the same amount of time. First of all, I disagree with Bricker, I think you have to do more than prove a problem exists before you pass a law that abridges constitutional rights. I oppose voter ID laws that have no real effect on voter fraud just as I oppose AWBs that have no real effect on gun violence. I also think both end up hurting your own cause (see 2012 election with record turnout by minorities and the incredible jump in firearms sales and NRA membership after Feinstein got the microphone). We don’t always know which ideas will work but we tried an AWB for TEN YEARS with no noticable reduction in gun violence. If you can’t prove efficacy after a ten year test run, I think you need to come up with a good reason to try the same thing over again. BTW, how does the mechanism of a revolver limit the rate of fire? I have a revolver with more capacity than my 1911. > [@](#): > > I don’t care what you think “gun grabbers” should do. I’m asking for a simple statistical analysis of what gun murders have in common and then regulating those elements in an effort to reduce gun murders, or if such an effort is a waste of time from the get-go. Most gun murders are committed by people who shouldn’t have guns in the first place. So if we can figure out how to keep guns out of their hands, it is a good bet that gun murders will come down. I think licensing and registration is about the only thing that will work without violating the second amendment. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Half the deadliest shootings in all of US history occurred in the past six years. > > [http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/\_news/2013/09/17/20546567-charts-half-the-deadliest-shootings-in-us-history-happened-in-past-six-years?lite](http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/09/17/20546567-charts-half-the-deadliest-shootings-in-us-history-happened-in-past-six-years?lite) And what is the significance of the frequency of mass murders of more than 12 people (I wonder why they picked the number 12) over our history? The rate of gun death in the USA has been steadily declining over the last 30 years. The homicide rate has dropped from 5.9 to 4.7 (per 100,000) over the last 6 years, thats like a 20% drop in the homicide rate over 6 years during one fo the worst and most prolonged recessions in living memory. Which is the more important statistic? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nah. Shotguns. Just the sound of pumping one gets a dude’s attention. And they’re non-concealable, so there are some practical limits to criminal uses. No shit. It the universal signal for “get the fuck out of my house” > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > In the future, would you please provide a NSFW warning if you’re going to link to porn? Gun porn? Or is the picture of a woman with a gun (in a bikini NSFW)? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Do I? Okay, let’s say you have 10,000 murders per year with handguns. How many legitimate self-defenses with handguns? Canada has far fewer handguns, so we presumably have far fewer legitimate self-defenses with handguns, but we also have far fewer murders with handguns. About 100, actually. Hentor will chime in and whine about why none of the current estimates are reliable but the current estimates range between 55,000 (by an anti-gun activist) and 2.5 million (by a pro-gun acitvist). The DOJ survey puts the number at about 100,000 abnd other social scientists usign the same data (but making some reasonable adjustments) come up with numbers between 250,000 and 370,000. My understanding is that a lot depends on how you define defensive gun use and how you parse/weight the data but it is clear that more study in this area would be helpful to the gun rights debate. > [@](#): > > So how many legitimate self-defenses with handguns are against other people with handguns? Why does it have to be against other people with handguns? Why can’t it just be against some unarmed guy thats going to rape you or just beat the shit out of you? > [@elucidator](#): > > This guy is most likely deep-dish batshit pizza crazy. Do you think there is really anything to learn by examining his decision making?..Or he may not have liked it because it smelled like unicorns. /agree, you can’t really draw too many lessons from the decisionmaking process of crazy people. > [@madmonk28](#): > > People who are in favor of gun control have reasoned arguments and peer reviewed articles in science journals, the gun nuts have half understood movie listings from Colorado and a deep fear of the outside world. Really?!?!:rolleyes: What peer reviewed articles are you talking about? And are you sure that there aren’t any studies going the other way? This is not loke global warming where 99% of the scientists believe the same thing and other 1% work for Chevron. > [@Alessan](#): > > Yes - disciplined soldiers who have undergone basic training, not a bunch of yahoo Rambo wannabees. There is absolute nothing in common between the military culture we have here and your American gun bullshit. Well, you probably also don’t have a problem with your soldiers raping each other. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/188 "2013-09-18T17:37:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … > What peer reviewed articles are you talking about? And are you sure that there aren’t any studies going the other way?.. [http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph](http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph) > [@](#): > > Objectives. We examined the relationship between levels of household firearm ownership, as measured directly and by a proxy—the percentage of suicides committed with a firearm—and age-adjusted firearm homicide rates at the state level. > > Methods. We conducted a negative binomial regression analysis of panel data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Web-Based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting Systems database on gun ownership and firearm homicide rates across all 50 states during 1981 to 2010. We determined fixed effects for year, accounted for clustering within states with generalized estimating equations, and controlled for potential state-level confounders. > > Results. Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%. > > Conclusions. We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides. (Am J Public Health. Published online ahead of print September 12, 2013: e1–e8. doi:10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409) > > Read More: [http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph](http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph) But hey, your side has the movie listings from Colorado. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/189 "2013-09-18T17:54:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Hentor will chime in and whine about why none of the current estimates are reliable… > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > …it is clear that more study in this area would be helpful to the gun rights debate. Talking out of both sides of your mouth a bit there, you stupid fuck. I suspect you probably don’t even realize it. > [@](#): > > … but the current estimates range between 55,000 (by an anti-gun activist) and 2.5 million (by a pro-gun acitvist). The DOJ survey puts the number at about 100,000 abnd other social scientists usign the same data (but making some reasonable adjustments) come up with numbers between 250,000 and 370,000. My understanding is that a lot depends on how you define defensive gun use and how you parse/weight the data… I’ve shared the following material with **Dumb Assguy** several times. In case others who are capable of getting it are interested, the links go to three papers that discuss the methodological limitations to the study of defensive gun uses. They also provide multiple examples of why gun strokers’ report of defensive gun use are highly suspect. > **[Gun use in the United States: results from two national surveys](https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/6/4/263.full)** > > Objectives —To determine the relative incidence of gun victimization versus self defense gun use by civilians in the United States, and the circumstances and probable legality of the self defense uses. > > Methods —National random digit dial telephone... > **[Redirect Notice](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncjrs.gov%2Fpdffiles%2F165476.pdf&ei=f-U5UoPbM9TyyAHs-YDAAg&usg=AFQjCNH0iN7ESTCMDk9QUtMYM2BSC26UCQ&bvm=bv.52288139,d.aWc&cad=rja)** > **[Redirect Notice](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stat.duke.edu%2F~dalene%2Fchance%2Fchanceweb%2F103.myth0.pdf&ei=DeU5UqLnL9TyyAHs-YDAAg&usg=AFQjCNHSzHSJzI04KZCo0uRsXMZatiod0g&bvm=bv.52288139,d.aWc&cad=rja)** These are people who are petrified about the world around them. They are biased to see threats where none exist. Of course they are going to imagine that they’ve scared off threats using their guns. It’s what they fantasize about. I have to say though, that **DA** used to assert that “we” have ESTABLISHED that the best estimate of defensive gun use is 350K. At least he appears to have stopped saying that. Perhaps he is somewhat less stupid than he otherwise appears! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/190 "2013-09-18T17:56:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As Bricker has pointed out repeatedly, efficacy is not a requirement for legislation. But I don’t see why the existence of alternative _B_ means there’s no point in regulating _A_. Besides, the mechanism of a revolver limits it to fewer bullets than a semi-auto in the same amount of time. No, that’s not what I have pointed out. It’s a true statement in many circumstances, but it cannot be generalized to be true in all cases. Indeed, when strict scrutiny is applied to a law, the government must show that the law is efficacious: that it is narrowly tailored to achieve a legitimate and important government goal. And I suspect you knew that, and knew that I knew it, and knew that I said it, but you had no interest in being overly burdened by the truth when the truth was inconvenient to your preferred narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/191 "2013-09-18T17:58:15Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > [http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph](http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph) > > But hey, your side has the movie listings from Colorado. And Jesus of America. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/192 "2013-09-18T17:59:59Z")
> [@](#): > > …the government must show that the law is efficacious: that it is narrowly tailored to achieve a legitimate and important government goal. And that is why no laws are ever passed that do not meet those exacting standards. Thank Heaven for _that_! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/193 "2013-09-18T18:00:31Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > [http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph](http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph) > > But hey, your side has the movie listings from Colorado. What does that sentence mean, “…although we could not determine causation…?” ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/194 "2013-09-18T18:06:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What does that sentence mean, “…although we could not determine causation…?” It means somewhere a hack lawyer is playing with his balls while yapping on an Internet message board. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/195 "2013-09-18T18:08:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What does that sentence mean, “…although we could not determine causation…?” Which of the words is giving you trouble? It’s almost as if you want to inject doubt about the study, but without making an easily dismissed argument. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/196 "2013-09-18T18:14:37Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > All of the slogans tugging on emotions. > > All of the shootings in gun free zones that go on until the shooters takes himself out, or is shot by someone finally arriving(with a gun) after maximum damage. > > Fuck you, gun grabber. _grabs your gun_ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/197 "2013-09-18T18:15:08Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Which of the words is giving you trouble? It’s almost as if you want to inject doubt about the study, but without making an easily dismissed argument. I am sure the study is on solid ground. I am asking you what you believe those words mean. Or to put it another way, I am asking you what you believe the study proves. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/198 "2013-09-18T18:16:13Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > It means somewhere a hack lawyer is playing with his balls while yapping on an Internet message board. That is not a rebuttal that is remarkable for its cogency. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/199 "2013-09-18T18:17:02Z")
Then again, you might well be a monorchid. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/200 "2013-09-18T18:32:22Z")
A few of you are guilty of overstating the strength of the gun control supporters arguments. If your case was so rock solid why did that last bit of legislation post Sandy Hook go down in flames? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=11)