# Gun Grabbers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014 "2013-09-16T23:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/481 "2013-12-24T20:00:11Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > - ignoring the obvious fact that a gun makes it much, much, much easier to kill one’s self, but facts have no place in this discussion Good point kenetic. [sarcasm]That must be why Japan has so few suicides, because without guns, suicide is sooo difficult.[/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/482 "2013-12-24T20:56:35Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Good point kenetic. [sarcasm]That must be why Japan has so few suicides, because without guns, suicide is sooo difficult.[/sarcasm] Not what I said, but why would that matter? GUNSGUNSGUNS!!!1!! ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/483 "2013-12-24T22:35:58Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Not what I said, but why would that matter? GUNSGUNSGUNS!!!1!! Ahh you were making the point that suicide is oh so easy with guns, implying it’s really difficult without, right? Which might be a good point if countries that don’t have guns had less suicides and/or if every time guns are banned in one of them oppressed countries suicides by other means didn’t rise to compensate. But like you said, facts have no place with you gun grabbers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/484 "2013-12-25T20:56:21Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Really? Even in New York, which has the highest tax on cigarettes in the country? Excise tax of over $4/pack. Compare that to states like Virginia or North Dakota (under $0.50/pack). I guess New York is racist and all, denying poor people the right to smoke? :rolleyes: Oh I didn’t realize you were talking about a $4 tax on guns. If it would shut you up, then I’d be OK with a $4 tax on guns. > [@](#): > > I’m curious - why do you think poor minorities can afford guns & ammo & storage but somehow can’t afford an alarm system? How much does your alarm system cost? A cheap pistol with a trigger lock and a box of ammo costs well under $200. > [@](#): > > You can have your fucking guns. You should just be forced to shoulder some of the costs you inflict on society because of your overwhelming lust for your penis extension. And in the end name calling is the basis of your argument. > [@kenetic](#): > > They’d just kill themselves by some other means\*, or so we,re told. By motorcycle maybe? Many of them would. I thought you were discounting things that didn’t directly affect third parties. (I would guess that second hand smoke kills more people than accidental shootings but whatever). > [@](#): > > - ignoring the obvious fact that a gun makes it much, much, much easier to kill one’s self, but facts have no place in this discussion Apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/485 "2013-12-25T21:23:38Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And you think close to a thousand people every year being shot to death by accident is no big deal. Fuck you. You probably want to step away and take a breath. Even the pit has rules of conduct, you ignorant piece of shit. > **[Restricted language in the Pit](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858)** > > The following expressions should not be directed at other posters. cunt and variants, e.g., cuntlapper motherfucker cocksucker fuck you and variants, e.g., go fuck yourself, fuck off and die suck/lick my dick/cock and variants Expressions not... > [@](#): > > I guess you think we should not tax cigarettes either? ‘Only the rich are allowed to smoke’? I don’t have a problem with poor people not smoking. Cigarrettes provide no benefit except perhaps making them look cool as teenagers in the 1980’s. > [@](#): > > And may be we should make cars free as well? Cars are expensive. Video game consoles are expensive. iPads are expensive. Are you saying that it’s unfair that only rich people get to buy them? Yeah, but we don’t tax them as a method of keeping people from buying them. That’s what you are proposing, imposing prohibitive taxes so that most of the people who by guns will be hobbyists. > [@](#): > > Yes, guns and ammo should be fucking expensive. That someone has to save up for longer to buy one doesn’t concern me in the slightest. That’s because you have no empathy, you can’t figure out that some people are poor and can barely make ends meet so they live in shitty neighborhoods with lots of crime and need a way to protect themselves that don’t require feeding and caring for a dog or paying monthly fees to alarm companies. > [@](#): > > And all the ‘you’re racist’ comments: Double fuck you. Once again, you might want to take a look at the restricted language portion of the board. And yes, your position on making guns expensive is telling poor people that they shouldn’t be able to protect themselves from intruders. > [@](#): > > I’ve had private security companies and regular corporate service. See, things like windows being broken in or other ‘panic button’ type calls are high-priority calls in every police department district I’ve lived in (i.e., a front door or window being breached vs a sensor inside the house). High-priority call, as in, cherries flashing sirens the works. Didn’t you say you live in a $3 million home neighborhood? So you have cops telling you that they don’t respond to these things right away and you have the fact that even if they did, it would take over 5 minutes between alarm and police showing up at your door. The average response time is over 10 minutes and in places like detroit its almost an hour. Sure alarms have a place in securing your home but its not the alpha to omega of home security. I don’t really worry about it but if I was, Id also get a dog and a quick access gun safe. BUt if I was poor and could only afford a couple of hundred dollars, I get a gun. > [@](#): > > The burglar may or may not know how fast the response time is, but when alarms go off & lights start flashing etc he/they are going to assume the cops are on the way. Assuming they were stupid enough to try and get in the house in the first place: Every police department I know of recommends some sort of home security system. And do they recommend that you do nothing more than that? And criminals do know how long it takes police to arrive. I don’t know if the majority of criminals are even deterred by alarms. If they have targetted my home because they know where my wife keeps her jewelry or where we keep cash in the house, then the alarm is just a speedbump. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/486 "2013-12-27T09:21:09Z")
What’s the downside to buying a cheap gun, cheap ammo & a cheap lock, btw? Also, I have no idea about this - how much do gun permits / concealed carry permits etc. cost? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/487 "2013-12-27T14:42:01Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > What’s the downside to buying a cheap gun, cheap ammo & a cheap lock, btw? It depends on the gun, maybe less accurate, maybe less reliable, probably doesn’t cycle as smooth, probably less aesthetically pleasing. Cheap FMJ bullets will work just fine but wont’ mushroom on impact the way more expensive hollow points would, so generally you only buy a few of the expensive rounds and more of the cheap ones to practice. The locks aren’t cheap but a free and they need a key to open, which might not be as fast as having one of them new safety gun box things. Maybe you should actually visit a gun store and go shooting so you won’t be talking out of your ass so much. > [@](#): > > Also, I have no idea about this - how much do gun permits / concealed carry permits etc. cost? Most places don’t have “gun” permits anymore. Concealed carry is free in Arizona and some other places, where CCW permits are still needed they cost probably $300 to 400, but you don’t need a CCW permit to guard your own home. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/488 "2013-12-27T20:44:24Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > What’s the downside to buying a cheap gun, cheap ammo & a cheap lock, btw? > > Also, I have no idea about this - how much do gun permits / concealed carry permits etc. cost? A new 9mm hi point is heavy & ugly but it costs less than $200 and is not noticably less accurate or reliable than guns that cost three times as much. I’ve never fired one but it probably the most frequently reviewed cheap gun (see youtube). If you spend $600 you can get a gun that feels better, fires smoother, weighs half as much and looks nicer. Virginia charges $50 for a 5 year ccw permit (the cost is largely for the police background check). The cost of the training program can be anywhere from $25 to infinity. A good one probably costs ~$200. Self defense ammo might cost $1 or $2 per round, range fodder is about $0.25/round. Self defense ammo might be hollowpoint or frangible or something like that. The target ammo is generally just a lead bullet and is perfectly serviceable as defense ammo. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/489 "2013-12-27T20:58:34Z")
My point is - I don’t see any appreciable difference in the cost of owning a cheap gun, cheap ammo, cheap lock/safe, permits, training etc, vs just getting good locks installed on doors/windows and exterior lighting, or vs getting a home alarm system. A home security system is almost certainly going to be less expensive if the gun alone costs $600 or more. If the argument is ‘poor people can’t afford home security other than gunsgunsguns!!!’…your argument basically sucks. And, as noted before…I’ve never heard of a home alarm system killing someone by accident. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/490 "2013-12-27T21:19:03Z")
According to Department of Justice statistics for 2011, of all firearms related crimes, only 2% resulted in homicide. That seems pretty hopeful to me. Hardly an epidemic. In my state, MN, the vast majority of fatalities by firearms are suicides. Given that our medical system has still not devised a humane method of self-disposal, that also seems appropriate to me. It’s matter of demographics. Determine which group is committing the majority of gun-related crime/homocide and deny them their gun rights until they are thirty. That would be young males. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/491 "2013-12-27T22:51:00Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > My point is - I don’t see any appreciable difference in the cost of owning a cheap gun, cheap ammo, cheap lock/safe, permits, training etc, vs just getting good locks installed on doors/windows and exterior lighting, or vs getting a home alarm system. A home security system is almost certainly going to be less expensive if the gun alone costs $600 or more. Like we said you can get an adequate gun for less than $200, a box of ammo is $7-20, the lock is free. > [@](#): > > If the argument is ‘poor people can’t afford home security other than gunsgunsguns!!!’…your argument basically sucks. You’re mom sucks. > [@](#): > > And, as noted before…I’ve never heard of a home alarm system killing someone by accident. Maybe you should try to get the democrats to tax all firearms then and see where that gets you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/492 "2013-12-27T23:48:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > My point is - I don’t see any appreciable difference in the cost of owning a cheap gun, cheap ammo, cheap lock/safe, permits, training etc, vs just getting good locks installed on doors/windows and exterior lighting, or vs getting a home alarm system. A home security system is almost certainly going to be less expensive if the gun alone costs $600 or more. A new hi point 9mm gun costs about $150 [http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ProductListing.aspx?brand=Hi-Point&catid=1715](http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ProductListing.aspx?brand=Hi-Point&catid=1715) A box of bullets costs about $6 for 20 rounds of the cheap stuff. Thats $156. How much does it cost to get a reliable alarm system, get it installed, what is the monthly charge and how long are you locked in for? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/493 "2013-12-28T00:46:59Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You’re mom sucks. Your. But don’t worry - we all know intellect isn’t really one of your strong points, is it. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/494 "2013-12-28T01:03:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > A new hi point 9mm gun costs about $150 > > [http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ProductListing.aspx?brand=Hi-Point&catid=1715](http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ProductListing.aspx?brand=Hi-Point&catid=1715) > > A box of bullets costs about $6 for 20 rounds of the cheap stuff. Thats $156. > > How much does it cost to get a reliable alarm system, get it installed, what is the monthly charge and how long are you locked in for? How about storage? Locks? Training? Any permits? Home security doesn’t only mean signing a contract with a company, you know. ‘Kickstop’ reinforced door frames are $50-80 even with installation. Motion-sensor security floodlights? $15-20. You can pick up home security systems for under $100 if you install it yourself, especially wireless systems. This whole idea that home security is somehow ‘expensive’ and guns are the ‘cheaper’ alternative is just ridiculous. In any event - somehow I don’t think you stand a chance by yourself when 3-4 guys decide to ransack your place because you had poorly lit exteriors and easy-access doors. I’ll continue making it very unlikely they even target my house, let alone actually get in. You go on masturbating with your gun there. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/495 "2013-12-28T02:16:40Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > How about storage? Locks? You can spend as much or little on storage as you like starting around $30. Locks come free with the gun, as you have been told a couple times now, but I guess intelligence isn’t one of your strong points. > [@](#): > > Training? Free or expensive. > [@](#): > > Any permits? You don’t need no permits. > [@](#): > > Home security doesn’t only mean signing a contract with a company, you know. YOU were talking about alarms though and response times for police. That requires signing a contract with a company. Tell us how much that is for the install and monthly fees. > [@](#): > > In any event - somehow I don’t think you stand a chance by yourself when 3-4 guys decide to ransack your place because you had poorly lit exteriors and easy-access doors. I shoot USPSA, so I’d bet on me. I still have exterior lighting and deadbolt doors. Them damn glass windows though make most otherwise undefended homes “easy-access.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/496 "2013-12-28T02:46:16Z")
So we’ve got a few people all pretending to laugh at the stupidity each claims to see in the others. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/497 "2014-01-18T03:33:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So we’ve got a few people all pretending to laugh at the stupidity each claims to see in the others. Not quite. Dragonash said that alarms are better than guns. Over time he has kept shifting the goal posts until he was basically saying that a “good” alarm system was better than a gun (plus good outisde lighting and deadbolts, etc.). Oh and lets not forge the part where he chides poor people for living in shitholes where crime is a problem. I told him that a handgun and ammunition costs less than $200. He then reverts to crappy alarm systems that don’t alert the police or a security company so he can make a favorable price comparison. He is simply not willing to examine his assumption (which is especially dangerous when you are assuming the conclusion). ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/498 "2014-01-18T12:14:08Z")
\ I had to chuckle. We were also very poor, but we had to have guns in the house, so when we got too hungry, we could go to the woods and shoot something to eat. House alarm systems…even if the police are slowish to respond, the crook will likely choose the house without an alarm. If everyone followed the advice to have an alarm, I suspect crooks wouldn’t be as apt to avoid them, just better at disabling them. We are decently well off, and I am always amused by the fact that if a robber ransacked our house, he would starve before finding much other than food worth stealing. I noticed one item or set of items worth several thousand dollars the other day and know a robber would never suspect it. If they want grandma’s old silverplate, it is a pain to polish, so be my guest. You might also describe us as dirt poor. our wealth is far more tied up in land than in expensive trinkets or art ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/499 "2014-01-18T12:17:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Not quite. Dragonash said that alarms are better than guns. Over time he has kept shifting the goal posts until he was basically saying that a “good” alarm system was better than a gun (plus good outisde lighting and deadbolts, etc.). Oh and lets not forge the part where he chides poor people for living in shitholes where crime is a problem. > > I told him that a handgun and ammunition costs less than $200. He then reverts to crappy alarm systems that don’t alert the police or a security company so he can make a favorable price comparison. He is simply not willing to examine his assumption (which is especially dangerous when you are assuming the conclusion). Sure, an argument can be made either way, but I come down on the no guns side because folks who buy guns for protection are, if I believe all the cites on the subject, far more likely to be killed by a gun than those who don’t have one. I know for sure, too, that I would never have a gun where other people could get their hands on it. Like Adam Lanza, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/500 "2014-01-18T18:15:06Z")
The phrasing “Far more likely” may be a bit of an exaggeration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=26)