# Gun Grabbers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014 "2013-09-16T23:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/121 "2013-09-17T19:16:16Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Of course it is name calling. And quite transparently so. That you don’t see that it is is very sad and speaks to a lack of proper upbringing. > > Disclaimer: I own guns and hold a CHL in Texas. > ETA: Oh, and to be more clear (as you don’t seem to have the best grasp on etiquette, vocabulary, or intelligence), “gun grabber” is a [perjorative](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjorative) term. Whether or not it is accurate (or accurate about some people and not about others), it is meant to convey contempt or disrespect to a certain group of people. That’s virtually the textbook definition of name calling, which should not be the trait of “a nice guy”. Since you are helping me out, and I do appreciate it, what is a name-calling name. I’d never heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/122 "2013-09-17T19:17:48Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Can we just dismiss this notion that the Navy Yard was a gun free zone? There were armed guards at the Navy Yard, in fact there were more armed guards there than are in the NRAs proposal for armed guards at schools. So there is no such thing as a gun free zone? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/123 "2013-09-17T19:18:30Z")
If only the military had guns with which to defend itself, none of this would ever have happened. ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/124 "2013-09-17T19:25:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If only the military had guns with which to defend itself, none of this would ever have happened. If only they were allowed to carry… ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/125 "2013-09-17T19:36:25Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Since you are helping me out, and I do appreciate it, what is a name-calling name. I’d never heard of that. No clue. I’ve never heard of a “name-calling name”. But I’ve certainly heard of “name-calling”, and using the term “gun grabber” certainly fits the bill. No matter what you believe of the accuracy of the term, it is meant to appeal to emotions both from people who support more restrictions on gun ownership and from people who support fewer restrictions on gun ownership. And it is meant to do so in a way that conveys your disrespect for a particular stance (and possibly the people who hold it). ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/126 "2013-09-17T19:42:45Z")
To summarize my post with a simple example: It would be technically accurate to call your father a “mother fucker”. But using those particular words to his face is not that act of using neutral words conveying a simple statement of fact but words deliberately chosen to be insulting and inflammatory. Saying “but it’s technically accurate” is the sort of argument I’d expect from a 6 year old, not a functional adult. Likewise “gun grabber”. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/127 "2013-09-17T19:53:32Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > So there is no such thing as a gun free zone? I don’t know what that means in your head, but there were armed guards at the Navy Yard and the shooter still managed to kill 12 people. There were far more armed guards at the Navy Yard than the NRA proposed stationing at schools. There was also an armed police officer at Columbine. Here’s a message you need to hear: you are not Rambo, he is a fictional character. You will never be the hero who saves the day and gets the girl, you’re more likely to be the Barney who blows his own foot off. Forget your sad fantasy and join us here in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/128 "2013-09-17T19:58:49Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > If only they were allowed to carry… Cite for the military not being allowed to carry guns, please. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/129 "2013-09-17T20:08:03Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > You need someone else’s tips? It’s satire. Was that painfully obvious point lost on you? ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/130 "2013-09-17T20:15:07Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Do you ever wonder if mass shootings in gun free zones happen because citizens are disarmed? I assume they happen because the **wrong person** is armed. But apparently nobody is supposed to make a judgment about someone else’s right to bear arms, lest they be called a gun grabber. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/131 "2013-09-17T20:49:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite for the military not being allowed to carry guns, please. > **[Fort Hood shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting#Military_policy_on_bases)** > > Fort Hood shooting may refer to: > [@](#): > > The Army prohibits soldiers from carrying personal firearms inside Fort Hood and other bases. They want to reduce casual violence among the soldiers. Military weapons are used only for training or by base security, and personal weapons were kept locked away by the provost marshal. Specialist Jerry Richard, a soldier working at the Readiness Center, said he felt this policy left the soldiers vulnerable to violent assaults: “Overseas you are ready for it. But here you can’t even defend yourself.” Jacob Sullum, an opponent of gun control, described the base as a “gun-free zone.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/132 "2013-09-17T20:54:37Z")
I’ve been on numerous military bases. Although it’s common enough to see soldiers (recruits, mostly) marching around with their rifles, the only people you’d expect to have ammunition would be the military police. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/133 "2013-09-17T21:00:59Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I guess an unarmed guard would be better. Please advise Obama to disarm the secret service. Well, an armed guard _didn’t_ help, despite your side’s claims. It, in fact, made it worse by giving the gunman\* another\* weapon to use. So, in this case, yes, an unarmed guard _would_ have been better. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/134 "2013-09-17T21:03:32Z")
So the presense of armed guards didnt’ help and we’ve already established that an increase in gun ownership leads to an increase in violence. Is the OP proposing that the only way we can be safe is if everyone always has a gun? If so, can I have a cite for that being proven effective? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/135 "2013-09-17T21:44:26Z")
Just for the heck of it: 1. What do most murders with guns have in common? 2. What regulations, if any, would affect these common elements and reduce the number of murders with guns? If it turned out, say, that 85% of murders with guns were committed with semi-automatic guns, could we consider tightened regulation on semi-automatic guns? Or is that already unacceptable? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/136 "2013-09-17T21:59:04Z")
I wonder, could the OP identify one or two ‘gun grabbers’ by name, so that I can better determine how this term applies to anything that might be said in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/137 "2013-09-17T22:22:09Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Do you ever wonder if mass shootings in gun free zones happen because citizens are disarmed? These mass murder guys are crazy. I don’t think you can assume any sort of rationality on their part. There is simply nothing we can do about these massacres unless we can somehow identify and treat these crazy people but society has already decided that this is not worth the trouble. These mass murders account for a teeny tiny percentage of gun deaths in this country. There once was a time when the gun grabbers (and I don’t mean that in the perjoritive sense) focused on trying to ban handguns (the source of the vast majority of gun deaths (despite being much less lethal than rifles) and gun crime. Its not like they didn’t have mass murders back then, they just realized that these black rifles didn’t pose that much of a problem. But if you follow the polls of public sentiment on handguns, you can’t even get a bare majority of people to support a ban on handguns. So they go after black rifles with bayonet lugs. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Hunh, made to 59 years today, and I’ve never had to point a gun at anyone. Just lucky, I guess. I’ve owned a gun for almost 30 years and I’ve never pointed a gun at anyone either. > [@Projammer](#): > > re: The Batman theater shootings > > Conjecture rather than data because Holmes has never spoken of the matter for the public record. > > There were 7 theaters within 20 minutes drive from where shooter lived showing The Dark Knight Rises. Six of them permitted patrons with carry permits to do so. Holmes carried out his spree in the one that didn’t. > > The one he chose was neither the closest to his residence, nor the largest where he might have anticipated maximizing the body count. > > You might argue that he chose the one he did because they once sold him stale popcorn and wouldn’t refund or replace it. I personally tend towards the Occam’s Razor line of reasoning. You are talking about rational thought versus what these crazy muthafuckas are thinking. > [@superslug](#): > > “… the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” > > “shall not be infringed\*\*.\*\*” > > Don’t like it? Hold a constitutional convention. And the first amendment says that congressshall pass no law that abridges…free speech. And yet we abridge free speech, and lobbying all the time. And it is clearly constitutional and was cosntitutional at the time of the writing of the constitution (as were various infringements on the right to bear arms). Or are you arguing that the right has become more absolute with the passage of time because we have had to use the right to rise up against our own tyrannical government so many times it has grown to a level of an absolute right necessary for the preservation of the union? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, they _do_ draw their recruits from a pool with a history of fetishizing firearms possession and usage. Toldya pools were dangerous.😃 > [@Gleena](#): > > Australia has had heaps of mass shootings since we tightened up our gun laws in the wake of the last mass shooting. > > Oh wait, no we haven’t. > > Fucking gun nut idiots make my head hurt. So we would expect different results in New Zealand where they didn’t pass a gun ban but somehow the rate of violence and murder both seem to follow similar trajectories. Is it possible that guns might not be the only factor at work here? We gun nuts don’t claim that we are basolutely and irrefutably right (well I guess some of us do) but you gun grabbers don’t realize how much you sound like bumper stickers. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The FFs were wrong about a **lot** of things (and that is far from the worst). All discussions of con-law should proceed with that held in mind. Yes, and the FFs inserted a failsafe called the amendment process for folks like Elvis who want to copnfiscate all the guns. > [@superslug](#): > > Luckily for you the constitution is a “living document”. You need only have a constitutional convention to amend it. It’s been done many times before, what’s keeping you? Not really. We already have a Supreme Court that has interpreted the second amendment to say that some regulations (including licensing and registration) are acceptable. if you disagree, you can write a clearer second amendment. All you need is 2/3 of each house and 3/4th of the states. Until you can get that, the supreme court is the arbiter of the law. > [@toofs](#): > > Racist much? I think he’s calling gun owners racist (mostly because he has to demonize his opponents to give his arguments any weight at all). > [@China\_Guy](#): > > Gukumatz, you’re running into the comma controversy. I shit you not (just to test your comprehension 😉 ). That whole controversy has always bewildered me. > [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Well, an armed guard _didn’t_ help, despite your side’s claims. It, in fact, made it worse by giving the gunman\* another\* weapon to use. So, in this case, yes, an unarmed guard _would_ have been better. We have armed guards for a reason. It doesn’t make you immune from violence but we give them guns for a reason. Banks still get robbed but the idea is that it deters these sort of criminals. I’m not sure what deters a crazy man with a gun. It doesn’t matter if that gun is black and has a bayonet lug and a forward pistol grip or a wood stock, any gun of the same caliber is going to produce about the same amount of carnage. Unless you (like a few others) really are advocating for the banning of all guns in which case the comments about repaling the second amendment are all appropriately addressed to you. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/138 "2013-09-17T22:27:06Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > I’m sure you were told this and believed it because it confirmed your biases, but it is complete horseshit. Century 16 theaters are the newest, nicest, biggest and closest to Holmes apartment. Take a look for yourself, then question your news sources. Why are they lying to you? > > [Google Maps](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=aurora+co&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x876c588622ba2b9b:0x8441e0688ba2e678,Aurora,+CO&gl=us&ei=cNk3UrD4FKj7igL81YCwCQ&ved=0CJMBELYD) A Google map with a pushpin in Aurora. How… Umm… Useful. :rolleyes: Let’s review the data I claim… Cinema Latino de Aurora/Aurora Plaza 8 Cinemas Not posted 1.22 miles (3 minutes) Cinema Grill Not posted 3.72 miles (7 minutes) Century Cinemark Theater – where the attack occurred No weapons allowed sign 3.97 miles (8 minutes) Harkins Northfield 18 (Billed as the home of Colorado’s largest auditorium) Not posted at the time of the attack 5.13 miles (10 minutes) Aurora Movie Tavern Not posted 10.04 miles (18 minutes) Elvis Cinemas Tiffany Plaza 6 Not posted Not showing The Dark Knight Rises 9.12 miles (18 minutes) The Movie Tavern at Seven Hills Not posted 10.02 miles (19 minutes) Landmark Theatre Greenwood Village Not posted 12.88 miles (19 minutes) UA Colorado Center Stadium 9 and IMAX Not posted 9.66 miles (20 minutes) Esquire Theatre Not showing The Dark Knight Rises 9.95 miles (21 minutes) Regal Continental Stadium 10 & RPX No weapons allowed sign 9.97 miles (21 minutes) UA Greenwood Plaza Stadium 12 No weapons allowed sign, but told that people who have their permit with them are allowed to carry in there. Arapahoe Crossings 16 No weapons allowed sign 15.38 miles (23 minutes) Mayan Theatre Not Showing The Dark Knight Rises 9.29 miles (23 minutes) AMC Southlands 16 23955 East Plaza Avenue Aurora No weapons allowed sign Not showing The Dark Knight Rises 20.47 miles (25 minutes) [Cite](http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/so-are-movie-theaters-in-aurora.html) So, like I said, 7 theaters within 20 minutes showing Batman and he bypassed 2 of them to go to the only one that was posted No Weapons. You have actual data that contradicts this? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/139 "2013-09-17T22:32:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So we would expect different results in New Zealand where they didn’t pass a gun ban but somehow the rate of violence and murder both seem to follow similar trajectories. Is it possible that guns might not be the only factor at work here? Well, what comes to mind first off is to find out if gun availability in New Zealand dropped after Australia’s ban. I can imagine a lot of gun manufacturers who shipped to Australia _and_ New Zealand cutting back sharply because the lion’s share of the market (Australia) was out of business. Further, if there were any gun manufacturers in New Zealand, did they go out of business because their largest foreign market (Australia, I’d assume) dried up? How closely tied are the Australian and New Zealand economies? Is it possible a dramatic act of legislation in Australia will have significant economic impact on New Zealand? New Zealand may not have banned guns, but their availability could have dropped anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/140 "2013-09-17T22:37:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just for the heck of it: > > 1. What do most murders with guns have in common? Committed using a handgun? Committed by someone who isn’t permitted to own the gun that was used? > [@](#): > > 1. What regulations, if any, would affect these common elements and reduce the number of murders with guns? Well we can’t ban handguns (see heller) so I suppose we could try enforcing the gun alws that are already on the books. > [@](#): > > If it turned out, say, that 85% of murders with guns were committed with semi-automatic guns, could we consider tightened regulation on semi-automatic guns? Or is that already unacceptable? Singling out a particular type of gun is probably unacceptable unless you can prove that people wouldn’t start using revolvers. Don’t you have to meet some level of efficacy before we can justify restricting the ability to exercise a constitutional right? Or can we just start passing restrictive law after restrictive law and just hope something will work? I think a good first step for a lot of gun grabbers would be to actually go grab a gun and head out to the range. Try out different types of guns and you might recognize that just banning a particular type of gun isn’t likely to have huge effects. Go through the background check process and wonder why we don’t follow up when someone fails their background check. Read the court cases and recognize the constitutional limits of what you can and cannot regulate. TOO MANY of the gun grabber arguments lead ultimately to the banning and confiscation of all firearms. Some openly admit this and say it would be a “good start” They just ignore that this would be unconstitutional. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=8)