# Gun Grabbers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014 "2013-09-16T23:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/161 "2013-09-18T01:20:57Z")
So here’s what we do… Based on census data, we issue every household a smooth bore musket, a brace of flintlock pistols, a barrel of black powder and another of shot. Every other firearm is forbidden except for law enforcement officials, members of the armed forces, and National guardsmen (a well regulated militia). Hunters can still hunt. Households can still defend themselves from highwaymen and brigands (with whom they will have firepower parity). Tinfoil-clad survivalist can defend themselves from the jack-booted thugs of whatever Federal authority they fear with about the same chances of survival they currently enjoy in their fevered, Tom Clancy-fueled fantasies. The Second amendment is preserved although it will be much harder to spray down an elementary school cafeteria. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/162 "2013-09-18T01:29:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I pointed out before, every soldier in Israel walks around armed - with an automatic weapon no less - on base and off, on duty and off. In restaurants. In movie theaters. In the streets, shopping or buying ice cream. Yet there is no “Wild West” going on. Wonder why? Because gun ownership is strictly controlled in Israel, with [rigorous background checks, registration and licensing.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws#Israel) > [@](#): > > It is forbidden in Israel to own any kind of firearm, including air pistols and rifles, without a firearms license. > > Israel Defense Forces officers honorably discharged with the rank of non-commissioned officer, reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander, ex-special forces enlisted men, retired police officers with the rank of sergeant, retired prison guards with the rank of squadron commander, licensed public transportation drivers transporting a minimum of five people, and full-time dealers of jewellery or large sums of cash or valuables, Civil Guard volunteers, and residents of militarily strategic buffer zones considered essential to state security are eligible for licenses allowing them to possess one handgun. Reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander are also eligible for licences allowing them to possess one rifle. Licensed hunters may possess one shotgun, and licensed animal-control officers are allowed to possess two rifles while Civil Guard snipers may possess one rifle. > > To legally own a gun as a souvenir, prize, inheritance, or award of appreciation from the military, an individual must first present proper documentation that they are about to receive it. Permits for gun collectors are extremely rare, and typically only given to ex-high-ranking officers. > > To obtain a gun license, an applicant must be a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, have no criminal record, be in good health, have no history of mental illness, pass a weapons-training course, and be over a certain age (20 for women who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 21 for men who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 27 for those who did not complete military service or civil service equivalent, 45 for residents of East Jerusalem). > > Gun licenses must be renewed every three years and permits are given only for personal use, not for business in the firearms sale while holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun, and may purchase a maximum of fifty rounds a year, except for those shot at firing ranges. > > Members of officially recognized shooting clubs (practical shooting, Olympic shooting) are eligible for personal licenses allowing them to possess additional firearms (small bore rifles, handguns, air rifles and air pistols) after demonstrating a need and fulfilling minimum membership time and activity requirements. Unlicensed individuals are allowed supervised use of pistols at firing ranges. Following a number of cases of firearm-related suicides at firing ranges, private individuals who do not own firearms are required to present a certificate of good conduct and a physician’s health declaration in order to shoot at commercial firing ranges. So, are you suggesting we should emulate Israel and adopt their gun control laws? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/163 "2013-09-18T01:32:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because gun ownership is strictly controlled in Israel, with [URL=“[Overview of gun laws by nation - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws#Israel)”]rigorous background checks, registration and licensing. That’s a non-sequitur. As I pointed out, every soldier, whether on reserve duty or regular service, walks around armed, with a full-automatic weapon, all the time, everywhere, on base and off. If you visit Israel, you will see people walking around with M-16s and Galils all the time. That has nothing to do with private gun ownership. Yet no “Wild West” shootouts. Or “casual violence” as the US military puts it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/164 "2013-09-18T01:35:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That has nothing to do with private gun ownership. Yet no “Wild West” shootouts. The “Wild West” analogy has everything to do with private gun ownership, so I can see why you are attempting to conveniently exclude it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/165 "2013-09-18T01:39:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The “Wild West” analogy has everything to do with private gun ownership, so I can see why you are attempting to conveniently exclude it. The point of discussion upthread was why does US military disarm its personnel on base (or off, for that matter). Apparently it was for fear of “casual violence” among them. And, by the way, rest assured that in Israel, wherever you go in public, there is a very high chance that there is someone (or a dozen someones) with a firearm within shouting distance. No matter what the “private ownership” policies are. There are no school shootings in Israel (or mass shootings in general) in spite of all the terrorists who would love to perpetrate one. Maybe [this is why](http://www.newsmax.com/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=218f60bc-6202-4443-9f03-113c4043b88c&SiteName=Newsmax&maxsidesize=600). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/166 "2013-09-18T01:40:58Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > As it happens, handguns are by far the most practical sort of gun to use to commit a murder. As it also happens, handguns are equally by far the most useful guns for legitimate self-defense purposes as well. Nah. Shotguns. Just the sound of pumping one gets a dude’s attention. And they’re non-concealable, so there are some practical limits to criminal uses. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/167 "2013-09-18T01:47:24Z")
Well, knock me over with a feather! Turns out, [Gun Grabbers](http://www.thegungrabber.com/) really _do exist!_ ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/168 "2013-09-18T01:49:40Z")
To follow up: there were two school shootings in Israel in the last 10 years. In one the perpetrator was shot by people in the school and a passerby before the damage could be higher. In the other the armed soldiers from a nearby base arrived and prevented bigger casualty count. > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | Eight killed at Jerusalem school](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7282269.stm)** > > A Palestinian gunman kills eight people at a Jewish seminary in Jerusalem in the worst such attack in years. > **[Yeshiva Student Gave His Life To Save Dozens](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/36322)** > > The murderous attack in Otniel occurred when two terrorists, dressed as IDF soldiers and armed with M-16 assault rifles and several magazines, opened fire in the yeshiva's kitchen, adjacent to the dining hall in which over 70 students were eating. ... If either of the incidents happened in the US, the casualty count would have been much higher. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/169 "2013-09-18T01:52:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > To follow up: there were two school shootings in Israel in the last 10 years. Because gun laws are much stricter in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/170 "2013-09-18T02:00:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because gun laws are much stricter in Israel. Of course. Nothing to do with this: [![](http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6510/israeliwomensb2.jpg) ](http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6510/israeliwomensb2.jpg) > **[บาคาร่า888 เว็บตรง บาคาร่า บาคาร่าออนไลน์ 2025](https://therealrevo.com)** > > บาคาร่า888 สมัครบาคาร่า เว็บตรง ไม่ผ่านเอเย่นต์ บาคาร่า TRR789 เว็บไซต์ คาสิโน เว็บบาคาร่า อันดับ 1 แทงบาคาร่า ขั้นต่ำ 1 บาท [![](http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6032/israeliwomen2za7.jpg) ](http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6032/israeliwomen2za7.jpg) [http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/articles/Israelis\_with\_rifles.jpg](http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/articles/Israelis_with_rifles.jpg) [![](http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4981/israel3vk9.jpg) ](http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4981/israel3vk9.jpg) [http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/2230/zipuu.jpg](http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/2230/zipuu.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/171 "2013-09-18T02:05:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. Nothing to do with this: That’s right. There are fewer instances of mass shootings in Israel because fewer of the criminally insane can buy semi-automatic weapons, not because there are more right thinking patriots ready to fight back if they dared. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/172 "2013-09-18T02:33:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. Nothing to do with this: > > [http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6510/israeliwomensb2.jpg](http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6510/israeliwomensb2.jpg) > [บาคาร่า888 เว็บตรง บาคาร่า บาคาร่าออนไลน์ 2025](http://therealrevo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/lonely-planet-israel_boys-girls-and-guns_ido-kenan-360x270.jpg) > [http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6032/israeliwomen2za7.jpg](http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6032/israeliwomen2za7.jpg) > [http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/articles/Israelis\_with\_rifles.jpg](http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/articles/Israelis_with_rifles.jpg) > [http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4981/israel3vk9.jpg](http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4981/israel3vk9.jpg) > [http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/2230/zipuu.jpg](http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/2230/zipuu.jpg) In the future, would you please provide a NSFW warning if you’re going to link to porn? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/173 "2013-09-18T04:23:11Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > The vast majority of murders that are committed with guns are committed with handguns. Depending on what statistics you believe, shotguns and rifles account for anywhere from 1% to 3% of all guns used to commit murders. > > As it happens, handguns are by far the most practical sort of gun to use to commit a murder. As it also happens, handguns are equally by far the most useful guns for legitimate self-defense purposes as well. > > If you’re considering whether a particular type of gun should be banned because of its prevalence in illegitimate uses, then you need also to consider its prevalence in legitimate uses as well. Do I? Okay, let’s say you have 10,000 murders per year with handguns. How many legitimate self-defenses with handguns? Canada has far fewer handguns, so we presumably have far fewer legitimate self-defenses with handguns, but we also have far fewer murders with handguns. About 100, actually. So how many legitimate self-defenses with handguns are against other people with handguns? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/174 "2013-09-18T05:43:48Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > A Google map with a pushpin in Aurora. How… Umm… Useful. :rolleyes: > > Let’s review the data I claim… > > Cinema Latino de Aurora/Aurora Plaza 8 Cinemas > Not posted > 1.22 miles (3 minutes) > > Cinema Grill > Not posted > 3.72 miles (7 minutes) > > Century Cinemark Theater – where the attack occurred > No weapons allowed sign > 3.97 miles (8 minutes) > > Harkins Northfield 18 (Billed as the home of Colorado’s largest auditorium) > Not posted at the time of the attack > 5.13 miles (10 minutes) > > So, like I said, 7 theaters within 20 minutes showing Batman and he bypassed 2 of them to go to the only one that was posted No Weapons. > > You have actual data that contradicts this? Just for fun, I checked this cite and found the following information shockingly edited from the above post: The check of the theaters occurred on August 14th and 15th, nearly a month after the shootings. There is no indication whether the theaters were showing The Dark Knight Rises on July 20th, particularly at the sold out midnight showing. > [@](#): > > There has thus been a 16% drop off between opening weekend **and when I checked on these facts on August 14th and 15th.** > Below is the list of theaters that I obtained from the above link. Of the seven theaters showing The Dark Knight Rises on July 20th that were within a 20 minute drive of the movie theater, six allowed permitted concealed handguns and only one denied them at the time of the attack. A very selective edit also occurred in the second closest theater to Holmes’ house, the Cinema Grill. As posted by Projammer - > [@](#): > > Cinema Grill > Not posted > 3.72 miles (7 minutes) The unedited info from the citation - > [@](#): > > Cinema Grill > 13682 East Alameda Avenue, Aurora, CO > (303) 344-3456 Press 9 > Not posted > **started showing Dark Knight Rises on Aug 17th.** > 3.72 miles (7 minutes) That would have been a useful bit of information to include, don’t you think? The movie wasn’t even showing there until a month after the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/175 "2013-09-18T05:56:09Z")
This guy is most likely deep-dish batshit pizza crazy. Do you think there is really anything to learn by examining his decision making? He might have originally intended some other theater, and maybe he changed his mind on the basis of risk analysis and prudent guidelines for massacre management. He may stopped at one of the theaters, and decided against it because they had no policy preventing guns. Or he may not have liked it because it smelled like unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/176 "2013-09-18T07:45:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Do I? Okay, let’s say you have 10,000 murders per year with handguns. How many legitimate self-defenses with handguns? Canada has far fewer handguns, so we presumably have far fewer legitimate self-defenses with handguns, but we also have far fewer murders with handguns. About 100, actually. > So how many legitimate self-defenses with handguns are against other people with handguns? 100 killings in (I am guessing here based on the fact that we had 598 homicides in 2012) a population of 30 million, in one year. That’s almost 200 more than Detroit alone had, with its population of over 700,000. The U.S. has a rate (wikipedia, go hard) of 4.8 homicides per 100,000. Canada is 1.6. We could probably drop our murder rate to zero if we gave everybody a couple of handguns to keep them safe. Why argue with success? ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/177 "2013-09-18T08:34:17Z")
We need some background checks for alcohol purchases. Maybe there should be a GED level (at least) test you should have to pass to consume alcohol. Also, yearly driving tests that include vision and physical tests. I’m sure a large number of deaths could be prevented. Seems common sense to me. That would save far more lives than banning guns. Joe Biden would tell us, like he did his wife, to get out on the porch and shoot 2 warning shots out of a double barrel chamber. Gotta love the guys ability to put his wife into a situation where she is now exposed, unarmed, and now has to take the time to reload. Of course, the story is a fabrication that he was attempting to use as a means to grab evil guns while letting harmless shotguns still be available. A sensible gun grabber. Did Aaron Alexis used Joe Pa’s advice, but just accidentally hit some guard using a warning shot from a shotgun? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/178 "2013-09-18T10:44:50Z")
How did we start from standard gun nut stupidity about alcohol and end up at Joe Paterno? Dance, nut! ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/179 "2013-09-18T11:20:25Z")
People who are in favor of gun control have reasoned arguments and peer reviewed articles in science journals, the gun nuts have half understood movie listings from Colorado and a deep fear of the outside world. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014/180 "2013-09-18T11:55:41Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > People who are in favor of gun control have reasoned arguments and peer reviewed articles in science journals, the gun nuts have half understood movie listings from Colorado and a deep fear of the outside world. Too true. Gun nuts appear to believe literally anything they are told, as long as a fellow gun nut is saying it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-grabbers/669014.md?page=10)