# Gun lovers don't see how far gone they are.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933 "2012-11-23T20:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/41 "2012-11-24T01:10:11Z")
The desire should be not to have to confiscate them even if it means by force, but to make gun owners give them up voluntarily and stop sucking on the teats of the weapons manufacturers and fuelling their incessant aim to put guns in the hands of everyone who can afford one, and fuck the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/42 "2012-11-24T01:13:23Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Alright, gun-confiscation nuts. So your position is that everything you believe is simply “common sense,” anyone who disagrees with you is a “nut,” anyone who points out your total lack of awareness about what the gun laws actually are is muddying the waters with irrelevancies, the supermajority of Americans who own or use guns on a regular basis without killing anyone are somehow not real people, and, most importantly of all, that there is an epidemic of mass shootings because you as a suburban watcher of network news can’t separate your easily manipulated feelings of fear from actual statistical reality. > > Why do people feel that you are being at least a little bit disingenuous about your beliefs and goals regarding guns? I guess it’s just IMPOSSIBLE to figure it out. Must be because everyone but you is a violent idiot, I suppose. I believe you are, in fact, correct in your description of the opinions of gun-confiscation nuts. How about your opinion of “stop shooting people” nuts? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/43 "2012-11-24T01:27:35Z")
Well, this is refreshing! Usually, these gun arguments degenerate in a big ass hurry. ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/44 "2012-11-24T01:33:58Z")
[![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ6Q3BfbVBU) ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/45 "2012-11-24T01:38:22Z")
Yep. So far this thread’s been as good-natured as an Alabama shotgun wedding. When are the fireworks going to start, one has to wonder? ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/46 "2012-11-24T01:42:56Z")
> **[Jay Leno’s Garage](https://www.nbc.com/jay-lenos-garage)** > > Hosted by legendary comedian and “Tonight Show” host Jay Leno, the series explores our obsession with all things automotive. From classic cars to supercars and everything in-between, Jay is hitting the road to discover the most exciting, weird and... ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/47 "2012-11-24T01:43:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fair, unbiased reading of the text of the US Constitution produces: > > (a) a belief that there’s an individual right to bear arms protected therein > (b) a belief that the state is forbidden from stopping abortions in the first trimester of pregnancy > > Now, you may disagree with (a). But can you disagree with (a) and agree with (b) simultaneously? That is, can you believe that the text of the Constitution more strongly supports a right to a first trimester abortion than it does the individual right to bear arms? > > I say you can’t. I say you need something beyond the plain text to arrive at those simultaneous conclusions. Obviously, you need something beyond the text to reach either conclusion. But that doesn’t mean that something would necessitate that you reach both conclusions. Why would it? Nor does the requirement of something beyond the text make the mode of interpretation non-textualist. Suppose I am holding an apple in my right hand and nothing in my left hand, and I write on a slip of paper “You may eat this object I’m holding.” Does a plain reading of the text of my writing say that you may eat an apple? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/48 "2012-11-24T01:44:07Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player\_embedded&v=AQ6Q3BfbVBU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AQ6Q3BfbVBU) A gun that fires once and is then useless will certainly sharpen up people’s decisions on when to fire it, so there is that. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/49 "2012-11-24T01:46:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fair, unbiased reading of the text of the US Constitution produces: > > (a) a belief that there’s an individual right to bear arms protected therein > (b) a belief that the state is forbidden from stopping abortions in the first trimester of pregnancy > > Now, you may disagree with (a). But can you disagree with (a) and agree with (b) simultaneously? That is, can you believe that the text of the Constitution more strongly supports a right to a first trimester abortion than it does the individual right to bear arms? > > I say you can’t. I say you need something beyond the plain text to arrive at those simultaneous conclusions. Bricker, the US Constitution of 1787 as written simply does not protect abortion rights, they were invented by activist judges. They were invented by activist judges because women were literally dying to get abortions in this country. And the judges saw that the political class wasn’t going to fix that in a timely fashion, so they wrote what they thought the law should be. And you know what? Constitutionality aside, _Roe v. Wade_ is better law, better law in its effects, than the “only to save the life of the mother” paradigm that preceded it in most states. What we can take from this is that strict constitutional law is not always better, and unconstitutional law sometimes is better. So thanks for opening up this apparently relevant comparison, because once we get outside your cultural-relativist legal-positivist authoritarian tradition-mongering, it actually proves a point; to paraphrase Dickens: The Constitution is a Ass. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/50 "2012-11-24T01:48:53Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The **Con** stitution is a Ass. The clue is in the first 3 letters. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/51 "2012-11-24T02:02:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. > > But since the Supreme Court has also said that the Second Amendment supports an individual federal right to bear arms (DC v Heller) and is incorporated against the states (Macdonald v. Chicago) that means that there’s individual federal right to bear arms and it’s incorporated against the states. > > Correct? Yes. Under common law. Don’t blame me, I’d happily take occupied Quebec (everything west of the 1763 Proclamation Line) back to France and civil law. I’d miss _habeas corpus_ if it weren’t already gone. You common-law savages can have the eastern shores, at least until the hurricanes wash you all away. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/52 "2012-11-24T02:16:00Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > The OP needs a better understanding of what poisoning the well means, because John Stamos’ Left Ear did it obviously and with such heavy handedness that it could be a literal textbook example. How in the world could anyone expect a reasonable discussion to follow that? OK. Let me see if I understand. I was outside today and the sky was blue. Anyone want to continue to claim that it is orange and has an Adidas logo? No? Good. Easily stated, easily confirmed facts, win an argument in one post. Is that poisoning a well? Then let’s get _everything that we possibly can_ sorted out that way. You offer no alternative wherein law-abiding citizens can apply for licensed firearms. Nope, your position, not **John Stamos’s Left Ear** ’s position, not mine for the decade or so I was a pretty serious gun control moderate, \*YOUR \*OWN GODDAMN POSITION IS THAT [SIZE=“4”]THERE IS NO GODDAMN MIDDLE GROUND.[/SIZE] “If you outlaw guns…” Wait, what? Outlaw guns? I have lots of friends who own guns, I don’t care that much. I want to know how to stop the next George Zimmerman or Scott Roeder. I want to know how to stop the next Kukluxer who shoots up a place of worship. Wait, you mean the only way to stop it is to outlaw guns? OK, then I guess that’s what we have to do. Understand, you’re (geeky reference) Max Lord in the Golden Lasso here, saying, “The only way to stop me is to [del]kill me[/del] confiscate all privately held firearms.” OK, in that case, let’s do that. Oh, is there a practical reason that’s a bad idea? Many if not most Americans go their whole lives never firing a gun at another person. Many if not most cops, for god’s sakes! And people who aren’t practiced in firearms use suck at using them for protection. So chuck the right to bear arms. No great loss. Since you clearly have no real-world leg to stand on, except _"the Framers said…_ boo hoo, whaaah," you admit you have lost any practical argument for any gun rights at all. I await your voluntary surrender of your firearms. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/53 "2012-11-24T02:22:33Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I will jump in on this. I am pretty liberal politics wise and a gun owner, handguns, rifles and shotguns plus about to buy an assault rifle and take the concealed carry class. Welcome to Texas. I practice and maintain my weapons. I am responsible and safe. I never want to shoot anyone and hope I never will. > > Here is the reality, there are at least 300 million firearms in this country. In the little gun control experiment you remove the guns from us the law abiding and leave them in the hands of criminals. So let me ask you after the legal guns are removed from the market how is the inner city any better? You still have about the same number of illegal guns and now the criminals know that everyone but the criminals are unarmed. That is going to work out well for the criminals. > > Now, there are laws that are not well enforced well, this should be fixed. If you are not legally able to own a gun Hell should freeze over before you get one. Straw buy, you should go to prison. Mentally unstable no gun for you. These laws already exist but need to be well enforced. > > Just my two cents > > **Capt** See, this is a reasonable answer. And I wish this were the answer. But to hear the hardliners talk, this isn’t even an option. I offended a lot of people earlier this year by saying that I suspected (without evidence) that a large proportion of rural American gun owners are already supplementing their incomes by running guns to organized crime. Now, I have no evidence of that. But the way they want to keep it legal to do so, that would be a rational explanation of the way they vote. If that’s not what they’re doing, why _do_ they get so offended at moderate regulations? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/54 "2012-11-24T02:37:42Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > whichever side you’re on, the otherside looks bad because they either look like they don’t care about urban violence and gangs or they look like they have no regard for personal protection That’s the thing, though. Do rural people really believe that “personal protection” line? I think it’s not only that they don’t care about urban violence. Given the rhetoric on the radio, it’s pretty clear that “rural white Americans” want anyone who lives in a city–especially if you’re too dark–to bleed out and die. There’s a real enmity there. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/55 "2012-11-24T02:43:01Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Point of clarity. You’re attempting to muddy the water by assigning modern definitions to a document written 220 years ago. > > In the vocabulary of the time, regulated meant properly functioning, such as in a regulated clock. As applied to people it meant well trained and coordinated. > > And as to militia… > > The Militia Act of 1792 defined militia in Section 1: > > > [@](#): > > > > That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. > > In other words, every white man in the country. In the interest of progress and equality this has now been expanded to include women and non-whites. > > But since actually taking the writing in context doesn’t fit your argument I have no doubt that you will immediately disregard and never mention it again. Fuckwit. It says, “shall be enrolled.” You’re not in a militia (i.e., force of trained watchmen, a police force, in effect) just because you’re a white man. You have to actually show up and train. A bunch of unorganized individuals are not a militia unless and until they join one. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/56 "2012-11-24T02:50:51Z")
Oh, whoever gave us this cite, thanks! > [@](#): > > The man is described as a black man of muscular build, with a shaven head. He is about 6 feet tall, aged 25 to 30 and was wearing a baseball jacket and jeans, according to the Met Police statement. > He had followed the girl for about 500 yards from her home before jogging closer to hit her, police said. > The girl was taken to the hospital for treatment for bruising to the head and cuts to her face. She was discharged later the same day, the statement said. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/21/world/europe/uk-police-girl-hit/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/21/world/europe/uk-police-girl-hit/index.html) That is clearly so much worse than the USA. She was discharged from free medical care the same day! Why, in this country, that would happen to a poor, shattered girl with much worse injuries if she were unable to afford care! What kind of a country is it where such an incident makes the international news? Here that sort of thing would barely rate as a violent crime! What a disaster for Britain, with their less dangerous criminals. What hell! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/57 "2012-11-24T02:55:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I want to know how to stop the next Kukluxer who shoots up a place of worship. And lo! it was suddenly 1959 again. I loves guns. Gonna get Mrs. J. one of them shootin’ irons for Xmas. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/58 "2012-11-24T02:59:57Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Here is the reality, there are at least 300 million firearms in this country. In the little gun control experiment you remove the guns from us the law abiding and leave them in the hands of criminals. So let me ask you after the legal guns are removed from the market how is the inner city any better? You still have about the same number of illegal guns and now the criminals know that everyone but the criminals are unarmed. That is going to work out well for the criminals. > > **Capt** Explain to me then, why, in a place where the only ones carrying guns ARE the criminals - and they aren’t exactly the restrained wallflower types either - there isn’t a constant stream of ordinary defenceless citizens being held up every day? What is holding these violent criminals back when they know we are all helpless on the streets and in our homes? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/59 "2012-11-24T03:19:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Explain to me then, why, in a place where the only ones carrying guns ARE the criminals - and they aren’t exactly the restrained wallflower types either - there isn’t a constant stream of ordinary defenceless citizens being held up every day? > > What is holding these violent criminals back when they know we are all helpless on the streets and in our homes? Maybe you haven’t been reading the paper. [**Britain has a higher crime rate than any other rich nation except Australia, according to a survey yesterday.**](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html) > [@](#): > > According to the figures released yesterday, 3.6 per cent of the population of England and Wales were victims of violent crime in 1999 - second only to Australia, where the figure was 4.1 per cent. > Scotland had a slightly lower rate of violence, at 3.4 per cent. > In the U.S., only 2 per cent of the population suffered an assault or robbery. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/60 "2012-11-24T03:20:31Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Fuckwit. It says, “shall be enrolled.” You’re not in a militia (i.e., force of trained watchmen, a police force, in effect) just because you’re a white man. You have to actually show up and train. A bunch of unorganized individuals are not a militia unless and until they join one. Why the “militia argument” keeps coming up is beyond me considering that it’s dead and gone, but regardless, what you have said here is wrong. The Militia Act of 1903 defines the “unorganized militia” as every male aged 17 to 45 not already members of the National Guard or Naval Militia, to include veterans to age 65. Therefore, you do not have to show up and train. The Amendment is incorporated. It’s a done deal. Yet this argument persists. Far be it from me to tell you what you can or cannot think, but your argument is nothing more than tilting at windmills. It will never again be relevant anywhere but on a message board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=4)