# Gun lovers don't see how far gone they are.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933 "2012-11-23T20:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/101 "2012-11-24T17:54:30Z")
If you care about the truth and not just your agenda read the facts. **Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives** ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/102 "2012-11-24T17:58:25Z")
But the argument isn’t “accidents happen”, it’s “swimming pools are more dangerous than guns.” To determine this, you have to consider the total number of people involved in both activities. I don’t see how a comparison is meaningful unless you do this. It’s just math. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/103 "2012-11-24T18:01:58Z")
And to be clear, I have no agenda. I really don’t care if all Americans are issued weapons at birth and gun fatalities increase a hundredfold. Not my problem. I just don’t see the swimming pool/football argument as meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/104 "2012-11-24T18:04:26Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > But the argument isn’t “accidents happen”, it’s “swimming pools are more dangerous than guns.” To determine this, you have to consider the total number of people involved in both activities. I don’t see how a comparison is meaningful unless you do this. It’s just math. You are the one not counting all involved. You only want to count the users of guns who shoot at people, instead of all gun owners. I have owned guns sense I was 7 years old and have never shot anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/105 "2012-11-24T18:04:47Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > If you care about the truth and not just your agenda read the facts. > > **Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives** > > \ At least make an effort to tidy up the shit you are copying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/106 "2012-11-24T18:07:58Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > But the argument isn’t “accidents happen”, it’s “swimming pools are more dangerous than guns.” To determine this, you have to consider the total number of people involved in both activities. I don’t see how a comparison is meaningful unless you do this. It’s just math. Fine. Consider how many guns there are in the US vs how many swimming pools. It’s your effort to equate swimming with “being shot at” which is wrong. “Being shot at” is a tiny subset of “using or owning a gun”. ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/107 "2012-11-24T18:08:53Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > At least make an effort to tidy up the shit you are copying. WTF are you talking about? I posted some facts with credits at the bottom. Honest facts…your post seems the one with only shit attached. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/108 "2012-11-24T18:12:01Z")
Gun nuts are frightened little pussies. Sack up you cowards. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/109 "2012-11-24T18:17:53Z")
Well, now, there! At last, we have some objective, non-biased research! Does sound a bit familiar, like _deja voodoo_, as if I’d read some of those stats before. But the wording is what convinces me most that this is clearly straight from the shoulder unprejudiced candor! Like “Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede…” When you see prose like that, you know that you are in the presence of completely objective research and analysis, without so much as a hint of agenda. And this: > [@](#): > > …2 According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois. … A mere thirty thousand? For a whole year? Shucks, is that all? And the clarity of the results! Don’t get me started on the awesomeness! This year, concealed carry was enacted, and since that time, violent crime has dropped, which we may take as proof positive that concealed carry laws prevent crime, because a precedes b, hence, b is caused by a. That sort of logic is simply irrefutable. I know, I’ve tried, can’t be done. Want more facts? Since the introduction of automatic handguns in the early 20th century to the civilian market, deaths from tainted meats and medicines have dropped precipitously! Those are facts, can’t argue with facts! Anyway, one must commend the daunting research conducted by the poster. Truly a labor of loathe. A lazy person might have just cut and pasted some propaganda from the NRA or its onions. Minions. Whatever. Just can’t get over the nagging feeling that I’ve seen this all before, in almost exactly the same format. Great minds think alike, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/110 "2012-11-24T18:20:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The comparison does work, though, in certain circumstance. Kids get shot often because there is a gun in the house, and someone is playing with it or otherwise using it for what it was not intended to do. Same with pools. Young kids, especially, drown because there happens to be a pool in the backyard to which they should not have had unsupervised access. No, John, the comparison does not work. > **[Which is more dangerous: A gun or a swimming pool?](https://m1-garand-rifle.com/gun-safety/firearms-versus-swimming-pools.html)** > > Swimming pools are much more dangerous than guns when you carefully analyze the statistics." Admittedly a pro-gun sight. But considering the amount of homes with firearms compared to the number of homes with pools. Pools are statistically much more dangerous. Not that I want to ban pools though. I hate the whole argument, and wish we could just put that to rest. Much like the parsing of the 2nd. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/111 "2012-11-24T18:20:53Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > WTF are you talking about? > I posted some facts with credits at the bottom. Honest facts…your post seems the one with only shit attached. Come on now, you have to admit a few spaces and tidying up would have made it easier to read. Thanks for posting with citations though. I suspect the numbers given were low WRT self defense as these incidents are not always reported. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/112 "2012-11-24T18:27:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, now, there! At last, we have some objective, non-biased research! Does sound a bit familiar, like _deja voodoo_, as if I’d read some of those stats before. But the wording is what convinces me most that this is clearly straight from the shoulder unprejudiced candor! > > Like “Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede…” When you see prose like that, you know that you are in the presence of completely objective research and analysis, without so much as a hint of agenda. > > And this: > > A mere thirty thousand? For a whole year? Shucks, is that all? > > And the clarity of the results! Don’t get me started on the awesomeness! This year, concealed carry was enacted, and since that time, violent crime has dropped, which we may take as proof positive that concealed carry laws prevent crime, because a precedes b, hence, b is caused by a. That sort of logic is simply irrefutable. I know, I’ve tried, can’t be done. > > Want more facts? Since the introduction of automatic handguns in the early 20th century to the civilian market, deaths from tainted meats and medicines have dropped precipitously! Those are facts, can’t argue with facts! > > Anyway, one must commend the daunting research conducted by the poster. Truly a labor of loathe. A lazy person might have just cut and pasted some propaganda from the NRA or its onions. Minions. Whatever. Just can’t get over the nagging feeling that I’ve seen this all before, in almost exactly the same format. Great minds think alike, I guess. You obviously don’t care about truth. You apparently hate guns and no amount of truth or facts well sway you from your hate. The point of the story you have completely ignored in you little rant is guns have saved more lives then they have been used to take. One guy even called gun owners pussy’s…well the women who have used guns in self defense might agree… It’s the middle of the night…someone breaks into your house…you have a gun and a phone on your bedside table…you awake to find an intruder about to bean you with a baseball bat…you going to reach for the gun or the phone? Which ine do you think would save your life? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/113 "2012-11-24T18:27:29Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > No, John, the comparison does not work. > > [Which is more dangerous: A gun or a swimming pool?](http://m1-garand-rifle.com/firearms-versus-swimming-pools.php) > > Admittedly a pro-gun sight. But considering the amount of homes with firearms compared to the number of homes with pools. Pools are statistically much more dangerous. > > Not that I want to ban pools though. > > I hate the whole argument, and wish we could just put that to rest. Much like the parsing of the 2nd. You lost me. Why doesn’t the comparison “work”? I never said it was perfect, I just said it had some merit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/114 "2012-11-24T18:30:31Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > You obviously don’t care about truth. You apparently hate guns and no amount of truth or facts well sway you from your hate. The point of the story you have completely ignored in you little rant is guns have saved more lives then they have been used to take. > One guy even called gun owners pussy’s…well the women who have used guns in self defense might agree… > > It’s the middle of the night…someone breaks into your house…you have a gun and a phone on your bedside table…you awake to find an intruder about to bean you with a baseball bat…you going to reach for the gun or the phone? Which ine do you think would save your life? In a country awash in guns, it might\* actually be true that guns save more lives than deaths caused. What does that tell us about a country with very few guns at all? \*Leaving aside for the moment that it is near impossible to determine if a life was saved by a gun or not. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/115 "2012-11-24T18:30:49Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Are you saying the only way to use a gun is to shoot at someone? Not at all. What gave you that impression? > [@leadarrows](#): > > You are the one not counting all involved. You only want to count the users of guns who shoot at people, instead of all gun owners. I have owned guns sense I was 7 years old and have never shot anyone. Owners? We’re talking about the usage of the thing, not the people who own them. People with swimming pools don’t make people drown, either. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Fine. Consider how many guns there are in the US vs how many swimming pools. It’s your effort to equate swimming with “being shot at” which is wrong. “Being shot at” is a tiny subset of “using or owning a gun”. You said it yourself. A gun in a box is just a thing. It’s the usage that matters. No one drowns in a pool that’s never has anyone in it, either. Where is the flaw in my logic? No one drowns in a pool that is never used. No one dies in a car accident involving a car that is never used. No one is ever shot by a gun that is never fired. To determine relative danger-levels (or whatever you want to call it) you have to compare total uses. To just compare the numbers of the items in question is meaningless. It’s not the number of pools that matter, it’s the number of swimmers. Surely there’s a statistician around here who can either back me up or shoot me down. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/116 "2012-11-24T18:32:11Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Come on now, you have to admit a few spaces and tidying up would have made it easier to read. Thanks for posting with citations though. I suspect the numbers given were low WRT self defense as these incidents are not always reported. > > **Capt** Do you mean there are people being shot dead by someone in desperate need to defend themselves, and the bodies are being buried or otherwise disposed of? Shouldn’t it be a lawful requirement that ANY use of a gun in a self-defence incident, whether anyone is injured or not, MUST be reported, otherwise, how are you supposed to provide reliable stats on these things? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/117 "2012-11-24T18:34:21Z")
> [@](#): > > …I suspect the numbers given were low WRT self defense as these incidents are not always reported. I suspect the numbers were pulled directly from somebody’s butt. I can’t prove anything either, but I can suspect all I want. Fun stuff: For the sheer heck of it, I picked a phrase and Googled it: “As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU…” That exact phrase, word for word, pops up all over the place! Second position is taken by our very own SDMB thread, but it does on page after page! Whatever you may say for gun…ah, _afficianados_…their cut and paste skills are second to none! ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/118 "2012-11-24T18:36:09Z")
People do report confrontations everyday. Why would you assume they don’t? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/119 "2012-11-24T18:37:15Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > People do report confrontations everyday. Why would you assume they don’t? Ask the person who says people don’t always report self-defence incidents. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/120 "2012-11-24T18:39:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I suspect the numbers were pulled directly from somebody’s butt. I can’t prove anything either, but I can suspect all I want. > > Fun stuff: For the sheer heck of it, I picked a phrase and Googled it: “As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU…” That exact phrase, word for word, pops up all over the place! Second position is taken by our very own SDMB thread, but it does on page after page! Whatever you may say for gun…ah, _afficianados_…their cut and paste skills are second to none! Mo bettah to google the title. It’s all right [here](http://gunowners.org/sk0802.htm). The whole shootin’ match, word for word. Better formatting though! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=7)