# Gun lovers don't see how far gone they are.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933 "2012-11-23T20:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/121 "2012-11-24T18:39:43Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > WTF are you talking about? > I posted some facts with credits at the bottom. Honest facts…your post seems the one with only shit attached. Some white space and indentation might make that wall of text you copied easier to read. That’s just common courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/122 "2012-11-24T18:42:31Z")
As long as we are about questions we cannot answer…are there, actually, any such thing as “gun nuts”? Go to your local Eleventy-Seven, buy one of those gun porn mags sandwhiched between _Cosmopolitan_ “Six Hundred Things We Haven’t Said About Orgasms!” and _Maxim_ “Cologne That Gets You Laid, For Sure!” Read one. Just one. See if you detect any sort of political or social tilt. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/123 "2012-11-24T18:52:21Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > WTF are you talking about? > I posted some facts with credits at the bottom. Honest facts…your post seems the one with only shit attached. The credits at the bottom seem to rely on Messrs Kleck and Getz. Hmmm. “Honest facts”. Hmmmm. > **[Welcome oneutah.org - BlueHost.com](http://oneutah.org/tag/kleck-de-bunkerd-kleck-debunked/)** > > Bluehost - Top rated web hosting provider - Free 1 click installs For blogs, shopping carts, and more. Get a free domain name, real NON-outsourced 24/7 support, and superior speed. web hosting provider php hosting cheap web hosting, Web hosting,... A counterpoint, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/124 "2012-11-24T18:53:00Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Some white space and indentation might make that wall of text you copied easier to read. That’s just common courtesy. Buy some glasses .. you need them.. I can read it fine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/125 "2012-11-24T18:56:06Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The credits at the bottom seem to rely on Messrs Kleck and Getz. Are they, like, the “Click and Clack” of guns? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/126 "2012-11-24T19:00:22Z")
[Moderating] **leadarrows** , in post #101, you posted a lengthy piece from another article without attribution. In keeping with the board’s rules respecting copyright, I’ve deleted the post. In the future, please avoid reposting entire articles from other sources - if the article contains information you want to introduce to a discussion, post a link to it, along with a summary of why you feel it’s important, or a short, representative quote of the material. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![leadarrows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@leadarrows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leadarrows)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/127 "2012-11-24T19:07:04Z")
How about I just don’t participate here any more? I am not going to retype information that I can copy and post that says what I want to say with out typing for an hour. I have better things to do. Have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/128 "2012-11-24T19:07:59Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > It’s the middle of the night…someone breaks into your house…you have a gun and a phone on your bedside table…you awake to find an intruder about to bean you with a baseball bat…you going to reach for the gun or the phone? Which ine do you think would save your life? Going from deep sleep to perfect shootin’ readiness on the guy who woke you up ready to bean you ? Man, those vigilante phantasies get more realistic by the thread ! (FWIW, most house intruders don’t pack baseball bats. They pack guns, too - when they even bother packing weapons, since the grand majority intrude homes in the _day_. When you, and your neighbours, are at work. It might come as a surprise for you, but for most petty and professional criminals inflicting grievous bodily harm is not the end goal. In fact, it’s something they’d rather avoid altogether, thankyouverymuch. If only for rap sheet purposes.) ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/129 "2012-11-24T19:08:49Z")
I’m gonna miss that fella and his wacky unformatted copy and pastings. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/130 "2012-11-24T19:09:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > **leadarrows** , in post #101, you posted a lengthy piece from another article without attribution. In keeping with the board’s rules respecting copyright, I’ve deleted the post. In the future, please avoid reposting entire articles from other sources - if the article contains information you want to introduce to a discussion, post a link to it, along with a summary of why you feel it’s important, or a short, representative quote of the material. > > No warning issued. > [/Moderating] Well thanks **Miller** , you just ruined all my hard work googling “kleck gertz debunk” :mad: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/131 "2012-11-24T19:11:10Z")
> [@leadarrows](#): > > How about I just don’t participate here any more? Best idea you’ve had all day! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/132 "2012-11-24T19:16:39Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The credits at the bottom seem to rely on Messrs Kleck and Getz. > > Hmmm. “Honest facts”. Hmmmm. > > [http://oneutah.org/tag/kleck-de-bunkerd-kleck-debunked/](http://oneutah.org/tag/kleck-de-bunkerd-kleck-debunked/) > > A counterpoint, at the very least. John Lott’s not the acme of intellectual integrity either. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/133 "2012-11-24T19:28:01Z")
John Lott represents intellectual integrity in the same way Idi Amin represented veganism. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/134 "2012-11-24T19:31:36Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > John Lott’s not the acme of intellectual integrity either. Maybe not, I neither know nor care. The links in my link to his article seem to be a bit more rigorous than the NRA ditto-head’s screed though. Hey, it’s not my country, knock yourselves out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/135 "2012-11-24T20:02:02Z")
And until we finally bring the scourge of baseball bats under control, felons will still use them and auto-inflicted unconsciousness will continue to plague our nation! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/136 "2012-11-24T20:06:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are they, like, the “Click and Clack” of guns? No, you thinking of the Tappet Brothers on NPR. This is “Lock and Load”, on Grimly Sirius Radio. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/137 "2012-11-24T20:23:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Best idea you’ve had all day! If only you had the same level of self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/138 "2012-11-24T20:24:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No, you thinking of the Tappet Brothers on NPR. This is “Lock and Load”, on Grimly Sirius Radio. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gms453](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@gms453](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gms453)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/139 "2012-11-24T20:29:33Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Not at all. What gave you that impression? > > Owners? We’re talking about the usage of the thing, not the people who own them. People with swimming pools don’t make people drown, either. > > You said it yourself. A gun in a box is just a thing. It’s the usage that matters. No one drowns in a pool that’s never has anyone in it, either. > > Where is the flaw in my logic? No one drowns in a pool that is never used. No one dies in a car accident involving a car that is never used. No one is ever shot by a gun that is never fired. To determine relative danger-levels (or whatever you want to call it) you have to compare total uses. To just compare the numbers of the items in question is meaningless. It’s not the number of pools that matter, it’s the number of swimmers. > > Surely there’s a statistician around here who can either back me up or shoot me down. Try this: compare the quotient you get by dividing the number of shooting deaths in the USA in a given year by the number of times guns were shot (ie., used) in the USA in that year, to the quotient you get by dividing the number of swimming pool drownings in the USA in that same year by the number of times people swam in (ie., used) pools in the USA. I am guessing, but do not know, that the number of shooting deaths per shots fired is much lower than the number of drowning deaths per swims taken. If my guess is right, that does call into question the motives (or degree of ignorance) of those who argue that guns should be outlawed because they are dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/140 "2012-11-24T20:37:11Z")
> [@gms453](#): > > Try this: compare the quotient you get by dividing the number of shooting deaths in the USA in a given year by the number of times guns were shot (ie., used) in the USA in that year, to the quotient you get by dividing the number of swimming pool drownings in the USA in that same year by the number of times people swam in (ie., used) pools in the USA. > > I am guessing, but do not know, that the number of shooting deaths per shots fired is much lower than the number of drowning deaths per swims taken. If my guess is right, that does call into question the motives (or degree of ignorance) of those who argue that guns should be outlawed because they are dangerous. You can’t go and fire 50,000 rounds at a gun range and then include that into the stats on gun usage among the general population. It’s not people’s usage of guns in controlled environments that sensible people are concerned about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=8)