# Gun lovers don't see how far gone they are.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933 "2012-11-23T20:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/161 "2012-11-25T04:41:20Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Not at all. What gave you that impression? From the comparison of people who have been shot to people using swimming pools and people playing football. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/162 "2012-11-25T04:44:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you _really_ want to find out, or do you think shouting “why?” over and over again without waiting for a response is all you need to contribute here? If you don’t mind, I’m going to take that first question to Great Debates and see if we can get some answers. Link to your question [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=673413) ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/163 "2012-11-25T05:08:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you _really_ want to find out, or do you think shouting “why?” over and over again without waiting for a response is all you need to contribute here? If you don’t mind, I’m going to take that first question to Great Debates and see if we can get some answers. No, I am not “just asking questions.” Really, show me where restrictive gun policies reduce crime or gun deaths. Why don’t the gun restrictions in large urban areas of the US work? Why is Chicago failing so badly in their attempts to control their situation? As you know, here in Oregon the state is awash is guns. We have a pioneering heritage and a mostly rural, spread out, population. In the rural areas with a hunting tradition there are several times as many guns as there are people. Yet little gun violence. You do see a few random instances of gun violence, mainly domestic violence. In the largest urban area of Portland there are occational gun shootings and homicides. These tend to be confined to the poorer parts of town and are gang related. Or are again, domestic violence. But we don’t really have a Chicago level of gun deaths even adjusting for a smaller city. In general, in this very large state, full of guns, there is little violent crime compared to large urban areas. I know you personally have a strong anti-gun stance, it is evident in these perpetual threads. But yes, I would be interested in where restrictive gun policies have reduced gun deaths, and what those policies are. And the posters from the UK and Canada should just fuck off while we discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/164 "2012-11-25T05:39:04Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > No, I am not “just asking questions.” Really, show me where restrictive gun policies reduce crime or gun deaths. > > Why don’t the gun restrictions in large urban areas of the US work? Why is Chicago failing so badly in their attempts to control their situation? > > As you know, here in Oregon the state is awash is guns. We have a pioneering heritage and a mostly rural, spread out, population. Oregon does not have a mostly rural population. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/165 "2012-11-25T05:45:21Z")
Too late to edit. But the rate of deaths from guns is not higher in urban areas: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/25/us-gun-deaths-idUSTRE64O3OY20100525](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/25/us-gun-deaths-idUSTRE64O3OY20100525) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/166 "2012-11-25T06:08:43Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > I know you personally have a strong anti-gun stance, it is evident in these perpetual threads. You know no such thing, at least not from any thread I’ve started. I have said over and over again that I was raised with handguns and rifles, and have owned a few(but not at this moment). If you had bothered to actually read what I wrote instead of jumping on the “He’s another anti-gun nut with a secret agenda” bandwagon, you would know that the only reason I question the 2nd Amendment is that the first part causes unneeded questions to be asked, and that I would like those first few words to be struck so that it is perfectly clear that the 2nd Amendment is about the rights of the individual to own guns. The next time you declare something to be “evident”, you might want to actually look at the evidence _first_. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/167 "2012-11-25T06:09:35Z")
Sticks toe in the thread, just to mention that if you look at the [stats](http://www.havasunews.com/news/arizona-s-child-fatality-review-report-lists-deaths/article_de90399a-3210-11e2-9c6d-0019bb2963f4.html), more kids die from car crashes (8%) or drownings (4%) or suicide (which mostly involved drugs), or even worse…they get left in hot cars. At least thats in Arizona, where we have at least 17 guns per person. If you read the link, you will find that the major cause of death for kids out here is inattention from their caregivers. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/168 "2012-11-25T06:14:16Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > You sleep on a boat? No, do you sleep in a batting cage? Not sure about you, but I don’t worry too much about intruders with baseball bats. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/169 "2012-11-25T06:20:16Z")
> [@flatlined](#): > > At least thats in Arizona, where we have at least 17 guns per person. That’s the average for every person in Arizona, right? If you eliminate all those people in Arizona that do not own _any_ handguns, what’s the average per person? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/170 "2012-11-25T06:40:37Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > No, do you sleep in a batting cage? > > Not sure about you, but I don’t worry too much about intruders with baseball bats. Don’t worry about intruders with bats either. Just wondering why you sleep with a life vest next to the bed. Thought you might live on a boat. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/171 "2012-11-25T06:58:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s the average for every person in Arizona, right? If you eliminate all those people in Arizona that do not own _any_ handguns, what’s the average per person? I have NO idea. I’d guess that there are more rifles than handguns per person. I like handguns and only have 3 rifles and 2 shotguns, but almost everyone I know has at least one old shotgun or deer hunting rifle that their dad gave to them. Wait one…one of my handguns came to me from a little old lady who got it from her grandpa. She gave it to me when she went into a nursing home and died a couple of months later. There are probably a lot of those out there as well. I can’t answer your question, I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/172 "2012-11-25T07:19:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > :eek: Damn, considering there are more guns in the US than there are citizens, that must mean hundreds of millions of people are hurt with guns every…what? Year? And I’ve never heard of even millions being hurt with their own fire arm. It must be a huge cover up by the pro-gun folks, right? > > … > … > 😛 > [@Hbns](#): > > You haven’t the faintest clue what you are talking about. > [@Projammer](#): > > **Yogsosoth** may be on to something there. Pretty much everyone that shoots a semiautomatic handgun has gotten a slide pinch at some point. And I’ve got to say, it does hurt. I managed to get my most recent one only a few months ago. > > So maybe he’s not a complete moron. > > Then again, he probably is. Aaaaand…there’s the topic. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/173 "2012-11-25T09:29:00Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Other large urban areas also show a correlation between restrictive gun policies and a greater number of gun deaths. Why? Post hoc ergo propter hoc… No, really. The gun policies were probably a result of gun deaths, but have been ineffective due to the profusion of guns in the wider area. > [@](#): > > Arguements that refer to the UK or Canada are non sequitur, they are irrelevant to the US. Chicago is not in Texas or Oregon. Would Australia be a fair comparison to make to the US? > [@](#): > > And it empowers the people in a way that your society does not. > > I think that is what really just grates on your ass. I have a US passport, but I choose to live in the UK because I hate American freedoms. Not because the intentional homicide rate is three times higher in the US, or that the US has approximately double the healthcare costs per capita for worse outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/174 "2012-11-25T11:10:07Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > And the posters from the UK and Canada should just fuck off while we discuss it. I thought your massive, massive gun love guaranteed free speech? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/175 "2012-11-25T11:25:48Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I thought your massive, massive gun love guaranteed free speech? Don’t get lippy, he’s got a gun. Oh wait, he can’t fire it at you… or me! So, Mr Dallas Jones, fuck you, too. I’ll post in whatever threads I feel like. ---
**Author:** ![Bilbo1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bilbo1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bilbo1967)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/176 "2012-11-25T14:20:11Z")
> [@Bilbo1967](#): > > If you bothered to read my post rather than ejaculate your first, ill formed, thought about it all over your keyboard, you’d have noticed that I made no comment whatsoever about outlawing guns. I was commenting on the fact that you just made up a statistic. > > I have no comment at all to make about the legality or otherwise of guns in the US, I don’t understand the arguments well enough to comment, but I do think that commenting on outright fabrications in your argument is valid. > [@gms453](#): > > Well, if you had bothered to read my posts, you would have noticed that, not only did I not make up any statistic, I never even mentioned one. Perhaps you don’t know what the word “statistic” means. I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t, given your clumsy misuse of the words “paraphrase” and “ejaculating” in your posts. Do you always rewrite history and resort to pathetic personal attacks when challenged? I guess it’s easier than addressing the points raised, but it doesn’t do much for your credibility. Whatever, given that you’ve proven yourself a dickhead of the first order, I’ll not bother responding to anything else you say - I’m really only interested in a debate with somebody who knows the meaning of the word (I can see the attraction of personal attacks now, it’s quite fun). ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/177 "2012-11-25T14:35:53Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I thought your massive, massive gun love guaranteed free speech? :rolleyes: Whatever you think you’ve sussed from his posts, it’s wrong. Massive gun love? Really? C’mon, man. ---
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/178 "2012-11-25T15:02:10Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Wow. Someone asks a serious question, and all the libertarian kooks immediately come in and try to poison the well _by accusing him of poisoning the well._ Serious question? Further proof that the left are idiots. The entire premise of the post is that expanding gun regulation is the only way for “society to look at ways to curb gun violence”. That is stupid and intended to put the focus and moral blame for criminal misuse of firearms at the feet of the law-abiding. NOTHING could have been expected from such a post than to raise the ire of gun rights supporters – under the guise of wanting to engage in a reasoned discussion (typical disingenuous action from the left). > [@foolsguinea](#): > > “How dare you point out the human cost of my policy!?” “_MY POLICY_” is what’s causing the criminal use of firearms and the river of tears of grieving mothers??? Your ignorance and biases are plainly evident and that is why you will never be taken seriously in a conversation on the Constitution and rights . . . because you have no working knowledge of those things. You think like a child, incapable of comprehending the larger principle. If I give you a cookie will you go away for a while and let the adults talk? > [@foolsguinea](#): > > You guys are beyond hope. Really. I’m just glad you’re dumb enough that when this country finally gets desperate enough for a fascist revolution, you’ll happily sell my jackbooted thugs the instrument of your own terrorization and enslavement. > > \*That’s \*what poisoning the well looks like, you cretins. No, that’s what profound ignorance of the Constitution, the law and a complete misunderstanding of what motivates citizens who cherish the Constitution looks like. You, like most leftists are actively engaged in the destruction of liberty and legitimate government and constantly prove why you and your ilk should never be given veto-proof power. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Don’t want to compromise on gun rights? Fine. Damn you all to bloody fucking hell. That’s right. And until you idiots demonstrate that your campaign to rot this nation from the inside out is done we will always resist you. You are not motivated by any concern for crime victims or for the safety of society; as usual **YOUR POLICIES** effectively work \*against \*the safety and prosperity of society. The modern left is fond of throwing around the term “rights” in a way that denigrates the true meaning. This re-inventing of our language has been going on for a couple generations and it has finally borne the fruit intended. According to you fucktards, we have NO right to keep and bear arms and certainly no right to defend ourselves from the criminals you coddle(because you know, every life is of incalculable value and who are you to decide who lives or dies), but we _ **DO** _ have the right to affordable housing, a living wage, secondary education, health care, and of course, in the left’s convoluted, contradictory thinking, the most fundamental of human rights, an abortion. The purpose of this Orwellian new-speak is to redefine our rights into a fuzzy, moldable menu of services, privileges and entitlements. Upon our display of various ID cards (except to vote), filling out the proper forms and payment of license fees, a bureaucrat can stamp “APPROVED” and our benevolent government will bestow our rights upon us. Unfortunately, with that mindset comes the acceptance of the situational denial or outright removal of those “rights” (Oh, can’t you hear the crying mothers; how can you demand a right to something that causes so much pain!!!) You idiots are so ignorant of the Constitution the most fundamental principles of conferred powers and retained rights completely confound and frustrate you. Instead you have exchanged original principles and have supplanted them with your “values” . . . Now, rights have been redefined into special grants of power to compel others to act (Obamacare). This line of economic, social, and cultural rights (ahem, genesis in 1917) now embraced by the American left assume very different roles for the state and to embrace these “values” you must discard the principles that established the Constitution. The two political philosophies are incongruent and irreconcilable and THAT explains the war you are waging on the Constitution . . . Leftist / Progressive rants demanding “rights” to health care, prescription drugs, education, affordable housing, internet access, a living wage, abortion, birth control, food stamps and a phone are demands that “someone” provide these things under governmental order. Our rights are NOT a list of services that government provides for us. Nor are they tangible commodities that the government compels others to provide to us. That you assholes have the audacity to tell us we have no right to arms while claiming all these extra-constitutional acts _ **as rights** _ tells me there will be a revolution . . . Lock and Load you authoritarian, statist dimwits. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/179 "2012-11-25T15:14:50Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > From the comparison of people who have been shot to people using swimming pools and people playing football. Well, you’re mistaken. I’m well aware that guns can be fired at animals and targets too. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933/180 "2012-11-25T15:47:41Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Whatever you think you’ve sussed from his posts, it’s wrong. Massive gun love? Really? C’mon, man. I’m only gently teasing, I don’t really give a fuck about hillbillies shooting each other. Have you had a look at the **Abatis** contribution? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-lovers-dont-see-how-far-gone-they-are/641933.md?page=10)