# Gun MANUFACTURER liable for shooting!? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538 "2012-10-12T18:07:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/1 "2012-10-12T18:07:42Z")
Case decision cited (NY’s inferior state courts are the Supreme Court’s.) > [@](#): > > In a unanimous decision, the Appellate Division, Fourth Department, held that a Buffalo man who was shot nearly a decade ago can sue the manufacturer of the weapon, as well as the distributor and dealer. This case marks the first instance of a court holding that a gun manufacturer or distributor can be held liable under the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, according to the Brady Center. [WSJ article](http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/10/12/ny-courts-decision-in-gun-liability-case-described-as-groundbreaking/?mod=WSJBlog&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wsj%2Flaw%2Ffeed+%28WSJ.com%3A+Law+Blog%29) On appeal I see REVERSAl. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/2 "2012-10-12T18:09:47Z")
Not knowing anything about the particular laws here… yeah, that sounds like a decision that is going to be reversed sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/3 "2012-10-12T18:11:34Z")
I don’t see where the manufacturer was held liable; could you point it out? All I see is that the guy can sue them. But then, pretty much anyone can sue anyone for anything. The whole point is to let a trial judge or jury decide the case, I thought. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/4 "2012-10-12T18:13:02Z")
For a law buff, you certainly have an interesting idea of what “liable” means. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/5 "2012-10-12T18:15:38Z")
This [Quote=Reuters] But the appeals court held that the law, which was signed by President George W. Bush, doesn’t provide immunity to gun companies that illegally supply gun traffickers or irresponsible dealers [/quote] seems to be reason for the decision. edited to add [link to original article.](http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/Legal/News/2012/10_-_October/Court_rules_N_Y__shooting_victim_can_sue_gun_maker,_distributor/) ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/6 "2012-10-12T18:17:12Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > For a law buff, you certainly have an interesting idea of what “liable” means. I meant to put ??? after the statement! I know the difference between what decided liablity means and a Cause of Action that is permitted to proceed, feel better??? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/7 "2012-10-12T18:26:24Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > I meant to put ??? after the statement! Since that makes a big difference, I’ve added a question mark to the thread title. (Only one question mark. Two exclamation points and four question marks was too much.) ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/8 "2012-10-12T18:35:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Since that makes a big difference, I’ve added a question mark to the thread title. (Only one question mark. Two exclamation points and four question marks was too much.) Thank you, as the summary quoted, as I quoted; …can sue… _Can sue_ is not an adjudication of the merits. Can sue is similar in nature to a RIGHT of Action, different from a CAUSE of Action. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/9 "2012-10-12T18:42:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t see where the manufacturer was held liable; could you point it out? > > All I see is that the guy can sue them. But then, pretty much anyone can sue anyone for anything. The whole point is to let a trial judge or jury decide the case, I thought. Right, my error on the thread title emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/10 "2012-10-12T18:47:45Z")
Can’t see this going anywhere. You can’t sue Ford for making the car you drove into a crowd of nuns and babies, you can’t sue Captain Morgan for your alcoholism. Well, of course, technically _you can_, but you’re not going to win. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/11 "2012-10-12T18:51:43Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Can’t see this going anywhere. You can’t sue Ford for making the car you drove into a crowd of nuns and babies, you can’t sue Captain Morgan for your alcoholism. > > Well, of course, technically _you can_, but you’re not going to win. See post #5. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/12 "2012-10-12T18:54:25Z")
You never know…if the judge doesn’t throw it out, as long as the “victim” seems pathetic enough, and the corporation faceless enough to the jury, they may award cash despite how stupid the suit is. Remember when DOW Chemical lost a suit due to the damning evidence of “exactly the same percentage of people with breast implants as without get this horrible, deadly disease”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/13 "2012-10-12T19:00:43Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > You never know…if the judge doesn’t throw it out, as long as the “victim” seems pathetic enough, and the corporation faceless enough to the jury, they may award cash despite how stupid the suit is. > [@Reuters](#): > > Attorneys for Daniel Williams, who was shot in 2003 when he was in high school, argued that Ohio-based manufacturer Beemiller and the distributor, MKS Supply, violated federal law by **knowingly** supplying guns to irresponsible dealers. (bolding mine)Does this make any difference at all? ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/14 "2012-10-12T19:01:49Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Can’t see this going anywhere. You can’t sue Ford for making the car you drove into a crowd of nuns and babies, you can’t sue Captain Morgan for your alcoholism. > > Well, of course, technically _you can_, but you’re not going to win. Remember the “Obesity” lawsuit where a man sued some fast food chains claiming they were in part responsible for overweight people, the complaint was dismissed upon a Motion to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/15 "2012-10-12T19:13:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > (bolding mine)Does this make any difference at all? Probably not. It isn’t the manufacturer’s job to police the retailers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/16 "2012-10-12T19:17:42Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > Probably not. It isn’t the manufacturer’s job to police the retailers. That’s not the problem that was brought forward. edited to add-It wasn’t that they tried to find this information-it was that they _already_ had this information. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/17 "2012-10-12T19:29:13Z")
Is there a legal difference between knowingly and unknowingly aiding and abetting? ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/18 "2012-10-12T19:39:13Z")
Define “irresponsible dealers.” If they have the government paperwork that says they are legitimate, authorized dealers, it’s on _them_, not the manufacturer. OTOH, if they didn’t have that stuff, then they’d be liable for something else altogether, not the shooting itself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/19 "2012-10-12T19:43:57Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > Define “irresponsible dealers.” Why? I don’t recall using that term. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538/20 "2012-10-12T19:44:42Z")
sigh…your Reuters quote did. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturer-liable-for-shooting/637538.md?page=2)