# Gun Manufacturers' Liability **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719 "2021-04-14T13:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/101 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Shooting people is probably the 3rd most common use for guns and hardly their reason for existing. They are the first two purposes listed on the Smith and Wesson website: [Smith & Wesson | Pistols, Revolvers, and Rifles (smith-wesson.com)](https://www.smith-wesson.com/) The guy hold a pistol on the front page of the Ruger site-Is he hunting for deer? [Ruger® Firearms](https://ruger.com/) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/102 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Ok, so you believe that a poor person would have no liability if their guns were stolen and they didn’t talk about owning guns. Does that work for middle class or wealthy people? What the hell, man. Did I say that? If your gun is stolen, you did something wrong by failing to secure it. Not advertising its existence is merely a way of improving security, not an exonerating factor. How fucking hard is it to keep your guns safe from thieves and toddlers? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/103 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Sure, that is arguably two of the 4 reason listed. And yet as I just showed less than 0.01% of guns are used for that what purpose do you think the other 99.99% have each year? The other two listed? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/104 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What the hell, man. Did I say that? > [@eschereal](#): > > A poor person can keep their gun secure simply by keeping it out of sight, unspoken of. It’s certainly possible I misunderstood your use of can. So you do mean that a poor person must own a vault to own a firearm? You aren’t being clear what are the methods you believe a poor person should use to: > [@eschereal](#): > > keep your guns safe from thieves and toddlers? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/105 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > There are about 400 million guns in the United States with about 40 thousand gun deaths or about 0.01% of guns are involved in a death (probably a smaller number due to some guns killing more than 1 person) while there are 284 million vehicles and 38 thousand vehicle deaths also about 0.01% (with the same caviot as before). At best you can say that a gun is as likely to be used for death as a car is though if we pull out suicides cars are much more likely to kill someone else then guns. {…} How many of those guns are “safe queens” compared the number of “trailer queen” cars? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/106 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
No idea. Do you know? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/107 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Umm, but do you think it might skew the numbers a little? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/108 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > There are about 400 million guns in the United States with about 40 thousand gun deaths or about 0.01% of guns are involved in a death (probably a smaller number due to some guns killing more than 1 person) while there are 284 million vehicles and 38 thousand vehicle deaths also about 0.01% (with the same caviot as before). At best you can say that a gun is as likely to be used for death as a car is though if we pull out suicides cars are much more likely to kill someone else then guns. That is a bullshit statistic. Half of those four hundred million guns have not even been touched in the past twelve months. They are sitting in a drawer by the bed for “peace of mind” or stored in a safe for when they are needed. When you compare the time that cars spend in use, on the road, to the time that a gun is in hand, ready to use, your comparison falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/109 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > This train of thought is not very different from how cars are treated. I’m not saying you are on the hook for that gun forever. But until you provide paperwork showing transfer of ownership or a police report of the theft the gun should be your (or your insurance’s) problem. And yes, opening up manufacturers to be liable for guns that were sold through a back door is part of the idea. Making dirty little wars too expensive for gun manufacturers would be a lovely side effect. It seems much different than how cars are treated. If my car is found after having ran over someone, you could certainly bet that the police will show up asking questions. But unless the state can prove that I did something with that car, I am not liable. Certainly if someone stole my car, I am not liable, nor is Ford. You’ve argued in this thread for near strict liability for any gun owner who has the misfortune of being the victim of a burglary. And as you readily admit, you view this as a nice thing because you cannot get guns outlawed constitutionally. Back to the OP, gun manufacturers should not be liable for gun deaths because we as a society have chosen to allow legal firearms and therefore someone cannot be responsible when they are manufactured just like guns are manufactured. The attempt to make them liable confuses Strict Products Liability tort law: [What Is Strict Product Liability? | LegalMatch](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-is-strict-product-liability.html#:~:text=Strict%20Liability%3A%20Strict%20liability%20is,the%20product%20caused%20those%20injuries). This doctrine was controversial when adopted, but at least it makes some sense when it involves typical consumer products. If my gasoline can explodes in the garage, it is fair to say (the argument goes) that the manufacturer should bear the cost of the explosion because a safely manufactured gasoline can should not explode. This argument fails when applied to products such as guns, alcohol, or tobacco which have known risks, even when used as directed, but that society has said _we will allow them to be legal anyways_. Keep in mind, that product defects are still actionable. If a gun barrel blows up in my hand when fired with the right ammunition, I can still sue. But I cannot sue for the regular function of the product. Trial lawyers won this argument with the tobacco company settlements in the 90’s-00s, and lawmakers rightfully saw that this was improper, so they passed laws which won’t allow courts to do what the people through their elected representatives have chosen not to do with regards to firearms. I understand that you disagree and would like to outlaw through litigation what is not done constitutionally or at the ballot box. But you cannot fault Taurus for making a gun that puts a hole in something when it is pointed and fired at. Likewise, Jack Daniels makes whiskey _knowing for a fact_ that many people who consume their product will do so as a result of their alcohol addiction or develop an alcohol addiction because of that use. I don’t have the stats, but I think alcoholism is a far larger problem than guns, but I think you would agree it would be silly if the family of an alcoholic could sue Jack Daniels. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/110 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Umm, but do you think it might skew the numbers a little? It depends. if the primary purpose of a gun is to sit in a safe then it isn’t: > [@eschereal](#): > > Firearms, by contrast, are specifically designed for violence and destruction. It is their raison d’être. As such, they need for careful management of them is extreme. so no that wouldn’t change the numbers at all. It would possibly make > [@Czarcasm](#): > > They are the first two purposes listed on the Smith and Wesson website: > [Smith & Wesson | Pistols, Revolvers, and Rifles (smith-wesson.com)](https://www.smith-wesson.com/) > The guy hold a pistol on the front page of the Ruger site-Is he hunting for deer? > [Ruger® Firearms](https://ruger.com/) even more wrong though since safe queen isn’t one of the four listed. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/111 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
So you believe that half of those guns reason for existing isn’t to cause death then? We’re already making progress. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/112 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If it costs them money for research, development and manufacturing, and they are totally protected from liability, please explain why they would love to do so. At this point in time not doing so costs them nothing. Then why do guns already have safeties not mandated by law? The reason is that _gun buyers_ want their guns to be reasonably safe. The market has dictated it. Gun sellers have no choice but to provide safeties if they want their guns to sell well. Some guns have multiple safeties, like the 1911 having both a thumb safety and a grip safety, or the Sig P235 having multiple safeties and a safe de-cocking lever. There are human factors involved here as well. If you make a gun complex to shoot by having all kinds of intricate safety mechanisms you may increase accidental shooting in two ways - one is that people will accidentally fire the gun while trying to manipulate the safety system, and the other is that if people think the gun is safe, they won’t handle it as carefully. Gun afficionados are very aware of how dangerous their guns are, and treat them accordingly. The fact that so many guns are fired every year with such a low accident rate attests to how careful people are with them. There are about 12 billion rounds of ammunition sold each year in the U.S. There are roughly 400-500 accidental gun deaths per year. That’s about 24 million rounds fired per accident. In 2018 there were 438 accidental firearm deaths in the U.S. In comparison, accidental falls killed 38,000. Accidental choking killed 5238. Drowning killed 3852. ‘Mechanical suffocation’ killed 1848. Accidental poisoning killed 65,773. I could go on. The notion that accidental gun deaths are some kind of public health crisis is purely a product of fear campaigning by the anti-gun lobby. If you are looking for a safety campaign to save the children, I suggest backyard pools. If you have a child, a backyard pool and a gun, your child is about 100 times more likely to be drowned in the pool than shot by the gun. And black children are ten times more likely to drown in a pool than are white children. So let’s focus on that first, for social justice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/113 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
I think the weapons industry has a long history of making a buck of selling guns to every side in every conflict. You are allowed to imagine that your favorite gun producer is an exception. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/114 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Then why do guns already have safeties not mandated by law? What safeties would that be? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/115 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > So you believe that half of those guns reason for existing isn’t to cause death then? Can you offer an argument that is not dishonest? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/116 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What safeties would that be? > **[Safety (firearms)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_(firearms))** > > In firearms, a safety or safety catch is a mechanism used to help prevent the accidental discharge of a firearm, helping to ensure safer handling. > Safeties can generally be divided into subtypes such as internal safeties (which typically do not receive input from the user) and external safeties (which typically allow the user to give input, for example, toggling a lever from "safe" to "fire" or something similar). Sometimes these are called "passive" and "active" safeties (or "automatic" and "ma... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/117 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
And this was added without outside pressure(the “mandated by law” bit you added was cute, but not what I originally said)? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/118 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Ah! the old fall back, the excluded middle. You should strive to make everything safe. Pools, cars, booze AND guns. That’s why there are regulations for how a pool should be installed, cars must comply with enormous lists of safety regulations, their drivers must insure them, Drivers must have a license, they are registered. Booze can only be sold to people over a certain age, not while they are drunk etc. etc. (you should see the EU or OSHA regulations on stepladders) Yet, somehow, guns should be exempt of all those rules. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/119 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Can you offer an argument that is not dishonest? I’ve offered a bunch. Would your prefer the bullets argument to the gun argument? > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > There are about 12 billion rounds of ammunition sold each year in the U.S. There are roughly 400-500 accidental gun deaths per year. That’s about 24 million rounds fired per accident. The raison d’etre of firearms is not violence and destruction. as can be seen by the lack of violence and destruction. Anytime you like to withdraw such a wild statement we can move on to productive conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/120 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Yet, somehow, guns should be exempt of all those rules. Or at least be the very last thing on earth to be addressed when it comes to safety. There will always be another “But what about _that_ over _there_?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719.md?page=7)