# Gun Manufacturers' Liability **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719 "2021-04-14T13:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/121 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Years ago there was a _60 Minutes_ segment about an epidemic of glue sniffing in the third world. People were trying to pressure the manufacturers of glue to make their product less accessible, and the manufacturers kept responding with “duh, you’re not supposed to sniff glue, we have warning labels”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/122 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Ok, wait, I dont get this. First of all guns are generally not “registered” in the uS. But what S&W could show is they they shipped the gun to a ATF registered FFL dealer, at which point what that dealer does with the gun is totally out of S&W hands. Next, per SCOTUS, you do not have to keep your guns in a safe. Nor would the safe generally be “destroyed” either picked or the entire safe stolen. Many guns are kept in a nitestand drawer, etc, and it is unreasonable for a gun owner to be help responsible for what happens to a gun after it is stolen. And why would the insurance be liable? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/123 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or at least be the very last thing on earth to be addressed when it comes to safety. There will always be another “But what about _that_ over _there_ ?” There are lots of things done to prevent guns from killing accidentally. I’m not certain why you’re ignoring all of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/124 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Tell ya what. You get police dept to agree to this, and so will I. But police dept and the military know any such thing is dangerous to the user. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/125 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I could go on. The notion that accidental gun deaths are some kind of public health crisis is purely a product of fear campaigning by the anti-gun lobby. But as you see, the proposal is not to hold manufacturers liable for accidental deaths. The proposal is to hold manufacturers liable for supervening and intentional criminal acts by third parties. Such a thing is unheard of in law which is why these examples keep getting mentioned like knives, cars, baseball bats, screwdrivers, hacksaws, and tire irons. Even though these items are indeed used in crime, it would be laughable to say that manufacturers of these products, or owners of the products, should be held liable for their intentional and criminal misuse. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/126 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > That’s why there are regulations for how a pool should be installed, cars must comply with enormous lists of safety regulations, their drivers must insure them, I don’t insure the car. I insure myself and any permitted driver of my vehicle against any negligence I or a permitted driver might commit while operating the vehicle. That is an important distinction that is always missing in the “insure guns” argument. The analogy would be having insurance against my negligent discharge of a firearm causing injury, which, if a person has homeowners or renters insurance, then he or she is in possession of such insurance. It is not required by law, anywhere that I know, because as Sam\_Stone points out, it is such a minor issue, not at all like negligent operation of a car. You are proposing an entirely different regime: requiring “insurance” to protect against the criminal actions of a third party, which is not a thing because, again, none of us are liable for the intentional and criminal actions of another. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/127 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > {…} But what S&W could show is they they shipped the gun to a ATF registered FFL dealer, at which point what that dealer does with the gun is totally out of S&W hands. {…} No, it isn’t. S&W _could_ say to ‘their’ dealers “If you do not keep a correct and complete record of all of your S&W sales you will no longer be a S&W dealer.” Somehow, guns are getting into the hands of people we all agree they should not be in, and none of those guns were manufactured by ‘Illegal Gun Inc’. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/128 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
No, it wouldn’t be rare. Look, too many juries decide verdict based upon their emotions, not the facts. The lawyer would just show pictures of dead kids whatever, and if you get a jury angry enuf they want to hold somebody responsible. So they return a verdict of $100M. Before 2005 such lawsuits were not uncommon: > **[TWO MORE CITIES SUE GUN MAKERS](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1999/01/28/two-more-cities-sue-gun-makers/1346a9b6-8638-424a-86c4-55c224a35c56/)** _The civil lawsuit named 25 gun makers and distributors as defendants, along with three firearms industry associations…Bridgeport, Connecticut’s largest city, is seeking $100 million from gun makers._ So the suits were from cities, who used taxpayer money to sue just about every gun manufacturer for a hundred mill. Not for any one specific acts of negligence but for just selling guns. And see, even defending against these cost the gun companies tens of thousands, and the cities could just keep doing it until they sued them out of existence. That is why Congress passed the _Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act_ in 2005. wiki _The **Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA)** is a United States law that protects [firearms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms) manufacturers and [dealers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License) from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. However, both manufacturers and dealers can still be held liable for damages resulting from defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, and other actions for which they are directly responsible in much the same manner that any U.S.-based manufacturer of [consumer products](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_liability) is held responsible. They may also be held liable for [negligent entrustment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_entrustment) when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime._ Note there are many exceptions like if they knowingly send a gun out to a criminal, etc, and defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, etc… So the gun industry was bombarded by really expensive bogus lawsuits from deep pocket cities, designed to sue them out of business. AFAIK, most of them were dismissed. But even so the legal costs were horrendous. IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/129 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > No, it isn’t. S&W _could_ say to ‘their’ dealers “If you do not keep a correct and complete record of all of your S&W sales you will no longer be a S&W dealer.” > Somehow, guns are getting into the hands of people we all agree they should not be in, and none of those guns were manufactured by ‘Illegal Gun Inc’. Sure, that’s easy enough. How would S&W know that their dealers weren’t keeping records would they need to investigate and inspect each of them nationwide? That seems like a job much better, and currently, done by the ATF. When the ATF finds a dealer doing something illegal they can do one better then S&W and they can put them in jail and prevent them from buying guns from S&W. So it seems like you’re trying to create a redundant and inferior system. Now, if you’d like to support increasing the budget of AFT so that dealers are inspected more frequently and to ensure they are performing background checks I’m totally on board with that. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/130 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
I’d say your country probably needs tort reform to flatten this sort of nonsense at the source. And make losing parties pay both sides costs, too, to stop nuisance lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/131 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
That would be good for a variety of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/132 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I do believe that in most cases guns need to be secured and so defining a minimum amount of security to be a responsible gun owner doesn’t seem crazy. The Supreme Court disagrees with you, in Heller. DC tried to make that a requirement, that all guns had to be locked up at all times. SCOTUS quite properly pointed out that means you wouldnt have fast access in a emergency. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/133 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > {…} That seems like a job much better, and currently, done by the ATF. When the ATF finds a dealer doing something illegal they can do one better then S&W and they can put them in jail and prevent them from buying guns from S&W. {…} If only this thread had someone that could tell us how often the ATF audits their sales records . . . if only. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/134 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Why don’t you ask him? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/135 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Why don’t you??? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/136 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Sure. That’s why I prefaced that with I believe. I’m certainly not speaking for the Court just what I would support politically. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/137 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I could probably kill someone with a vegetable knife or a bicycle chain or a tire iron or a wine bottle or an F150, but these things are most commonly used non-murderously. Firearms, by contrast, are specifically designed for violence and destruction. There are 300 Million guns in the USA. About 10000 of them are used to murder per year. Thus about one gun in 30000 is used to murder. Next guns are also designed to punch small holes in paper or specifically to be never used and collected. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/138 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > And yes, opening up manufacturers to be liable for guns that were sold through a back door is part of the idea. If the manufacturer sells the gun thru the back door, they are liable. However, if someone else down the line does it, how can they be held liable? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/139 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
Neither home defense nor concealed carry has the goal of “Shooting people” in fact that goal for both is to NOT shoot people, unless in final necessity. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719/140 "2021-04-14T15:09:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Would your prefer the bullets argument to the gun argument? > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > There are about 12 billion rounds of ammunition sold each year in the U.S. There are roughly 400-500 accidental gun deaths per year. That’s about 24 million rounds fired per accident. As compared to the more than 400 billion liters of motor fuel sold every year, that account for 38 thousand deaths, which means over ten thousand liters per death. You could fit a thousand bullets into a liter so … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-manufacturers-liability/939719.md?page=8)