# Gun owners...how bad is it, how bad could it be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942 "2009-02-01T01:27:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/41 "2009-02-01T06:44:21Z")
I’m saying the training doesn’t matter because the tanks and the gunships would take out the trained as easily as the untrained. All they’re going to have is infantry going up against the heaviest artillary imaginable, air power, tanks and in overwhelming advantage an manpower, supplies and money. Even if everyone in a citizen militia is a Navy Seal or a Green Beret, they’re still going to get slaughtered in a very short war. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/42 "2009-02-01T06:44:33Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > 1. you’d have to ban all private sales of firearms. _Period_. Which is what most efforts to close the loophole seem to involve. Pain in the neck. I’d suggest it might work better to do a volume thing. “Any person selling more than 50 weapons over six months must sell through an authorized agent.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/43 "2009-02-01T06:58:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I love when the gun nuts trot this one out. As if those militia yahoos would have the slightest chance against the US Military. I would love to watch those idiots try to take on the United States. It would be hilarious. So what you’re saying is that a well armed group of people could not challenge the status quo. It would take at least 10 people with box cutters to mount a successful attack on the seat of military power. . ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/44 "2009-02-01T07:12:18Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Which is what most efforts to close the loophole seem to involve. Pain in the neck. I’d suggest it might work better to do a volume thing. “Any person selling more than 50 weapons over six months must sell through an authorized agent.” That doesn’t sound like it would be any better, since you’d presumably need the record of sale system in place to determine when someone has sold more than 50 weapons. ---
**Author:** ![achilles\_bogart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@achilles\_bogart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achilles_bogart)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/45 "2009-02-01T07:26:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m saying the training doesn’t matter because the tanks and the gunships would take out the trained as easily as the untrained. All they’re going to have is infantry going up against the heaviest artillary imaginable, air power, tanks and in overwhelming advantage an manpower, supplies and money. Even if everyone in a citizen militia is a Navy Seal or a Green Beret, they’re still going to get slaughtered in a very short war. If that is what you were saying, then you should have said that in the first place instead of something completely different. First off 16.1 million people [served](http://census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/001747.html) in the U.S. armed forces in WWII. 10.1 million of those were [drafted](http://www.sss.gov/induct.htm). So we are not talking just one or two people as you are implying, but a body of military trained civilians that out numbers the army. Secondly, training matters a great deal. You learn tactics, discipline, weapons handling and repairs. You learn how to stay (relatively) calm in the face of enemy fire. Training increases proficiency, even Moslem Suicide Bombers undergo training… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/46 "2009-02-01T07:32:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That doesn’t sound like it would be any better, since you’d presumably need the record of sale system in place to determine when someone has sold more than 50 weapons. It’s a first-idea. Basically, I’d say self-reporting and local policing should be able to handle it. Eg, if someone’s running a second business, it should be noticeable in some way, generally, there are cops at gun shows, usually as customers if nothing else, but… you see my point, there’s got to be a second or third way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![achilles\_bogart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@achilles\_bogart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achilles_bogart)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/47 "2009-02-01T07:33:00Z")
The [census.gov](http://census.gov) link needs www. at the beginning to function. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/48 "2009-02-01T08:04:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I love when the gun nuts trot this one out. As if those militia yahoos would have the slightest chance against the US Military. I would love to watch those idiots try to take on the United States. It would be hilarious. It doesn’t surprise me, but you’re missing the entire point of having an armed citizenry to oppose totalitarianism. The point isn’t that an armed population could effectively oppose trained and supported government troops on an individual basis, they can’t, they’d be slaughtered. The point is to make the price of the totalitarian regime imposing their will forcefully on the citizens too high. If the government comes to take my guns away (and I don’t even have any), or to force anything else on me, I have the ability to resist. I’ll lose, of course (see David Koresh), but as a consequence of my resistance, I may take one or two of the totalitarian troops with me. Multiply my resistance by millions, and you’ll get a grasp of the logistics involved in subjugating an armed population. If each citizen resists and kills a government operative, the government is going to run out of agents long before the country runs out of citizens. In addition, people who espouse your POV, “Civilians wouldn’t be able to effectively resist an armed subjugation of the population” completely discount the fact that we have an all volunteer army. Y’all tend to view soldiers as mindless drones, but they are not. Soldiers are indoctrinated to obey orders, of course, but they are never trained to shed their intellect or their conscience. A government that orders them to fire on their friends, their families and their acquaintances to ensure it’s own power is going to find itself without many soldiers at it’s command. If that situation ever came to pass, I would gladly spend my life, and the life of every member of my family, to defend what made this country great. My ancestors did, how can I do less? Would you? I suspect not. I gave you the opportunity to put your stated message board convictions where your mouth is, and you declined and ran away screaming like a little girl. If it ever comes down to a physical showdown between totalitarianism and freedom, I fully expect to see you sucking up to the seductive tit of conformity. > [@](#): > > If they hate America so much, maybe they should leave. The only person I see here hating America is you. You demonstratively do NOT agree with the individualism and self reliance that this country was built on, why don’t you leave? There are lots of countries in Europe that embody the Social Democracy that you revere, why don’t you move to one? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/49 "2009-02-01T08:09:57Z")
> [@achilles\_bogart](#): > > They retained the training, but now that we have no conscription only the small group that volunteers receives military training. The rest of us are at the whimsy of the government because we don’t have the training to defend ourselves. So you learn how doing it old school, on the job training. Dio is right and he is wrong at the same time, your not going to go head to head with the US military and come out this side of the soil. What you will do is to plant explosives along fuel lines, electrical grids , anything that makes the administration look weak. The people I am hearing, are basically staying away from the idea that american would fire on american, its just not going to happen. Id wait for the next columbine type incident before gauging the mood of congress, I would have thought we would have heard something with regards to that murder/suicide in LA , but nothing yet. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/50 "2009-02-01T08:24:27Z")
> [@achilles\_bogart](#): > > If that is what you were saying, then you should have said that in the first place instead of something completely different. > > First off 16.1 million people [served](http://census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/001747.html) in the U.S. armed forces in WWII. 10.1 million of those were [drafted](http://www.sss.gov/induct.htm). So we are not talking just one or two people as you are implying, but a body of military trained civilians that out numbers the army. Secondly, training matters a great deal. You learn tactics, discipline, weapons handling and repairs. You learn how to stay (relatively) calm in the face of enemy fire. Training increases proficiency, even Moslem Suicide Bombers undergo training… I’ve served in the US Military. I’m not going to beat an Apache helicopter with an Uzi. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/51 "2009-02-01T08:35:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ve served in the US Military. Did you get out with a dishonorable discharge or did you manage to hide your cowardice? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/52 "2009-02-01T08:36:37Z")
By the way, you’re not going to mount a massive horde of ex-military personel aginst the United States. The militias are nothing more than a few insignificant gangs of anti-social, misfit fatsos with Rambo complexes. The vast majority of the citizenry would be on the side of the United States, including the vast majority of ex-military. I would happily take up arms against any domestic, insurgent terrorist gangs trying to do injury to US Military personel or to my country. There’s nothing heroic or noble about these middle aged children plotting how to murder US troops. They’re pathetic, terrorist wannabes who’s spent too much time reading _The Turner Diaries_. ---
**Author:** ![achilles\_bogart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@achilles\_bogart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achilles_bogart)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/53 "2009-02-01T08:39:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ve served in the US Military. I’m not going to beat an Apache helicopter with an Uzi. And the price of tea in China is… [QUOTE=Declan] your not going to go head to head with the US military and come out this side of the soil. [/QUOTE] That’s what I’ve been saying. We, the people, have forfeited our right to be able to defend ourselves. We have the military to protect us from the enemy without, but the enemy with can use the military to oppress us because gave up one of our inalienable rights. The government doesn’t have to worry about us, so it can do what it wants to us. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/54 "2009-02-01T08:43:58Z")
So can ANY government. If you don’t trust democracy, what are you going to replace it with? If you want to arm the citizenry better than the military (which I don’t see how would even be possible), then you will end up with a coup and a junta every time. This ludicrous idea that gun rights (which I support , incidentally) have anything to do with protecting citizens from the government is just so much BS rationalization. You want gun rights because you want guns. Just admit it. You don’t need any more noble reason than that. ---
**Author:** ![achilles\_bogart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@achilles\_bogart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achilles_bogart)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/55 "2009-02-01T08:45:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the way, you’re not going to mount a massive horde of ex-military personel aginst the United States. The militias are nothing more than a few insignificant gangs of anti-social, misfit fatsos with Rambo complexes. The vast majority of the citizenry would be on the side of the United States, including the vast majority of ex-military. I would happily take up arms against any domestic, insurgent terrorist gangs trying to do injury to US Military personel or to my country. There’s nothing heroic or noble about these middle aged children plotting plotting how to murder US troops. They’re pathetic, terrorist wannabes who’s spent too much time reading _The Turner Diaries_. :smack: They need to raise the minimum enlistment score on the ASVAB above 31. Once again the only time I’ve referred to militia in the sense that you are obsessive-compulsive about is to say that is not the type of militia I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/56 "2009-02-01T08:46:15Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Did you get out with a dishonorable discharge or did you manage to hide your cowardice? What is this supposed to mean and what does it have to do with the debate? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/57 "2009-02-01T08:55:27Z")
> [@achilles\_bogart](#): > > :smack: They need to raise the minimum enlistment score on the ASVAB above 31. > > Once again the only time I’ve referred to militia in the sense that you are obsessive-compulsive about is to say that is not the type of militia I am talking about. I get what you’re saying about a militia being a conscripted national military. I do get that. I understand what you mean. What I’m disagreeing with is your contention that it matters once they _leave_ the military because _outside_ the military, all they have is light infantry and lame-o citizen militias. There is no way even the training acquired among citizenry from a conscripted military can ever make up for the ridiculous mismatch in weaponry. Sure they can use guerilla tactics and try to plant IEDs or resort to cheap sabotage and potshots, but they won’t have the will and protection of the people behind them and they won’t be able to sustain as anything but a nuisance for very long. ---
**Author:** ![achilles\_bogart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@achilles\_bogart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achilles_bogart)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/58 "2009-02-01T08:58:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So can ANY government. If you don’t trust democracy, what are you going to replace it with? > > If you want to arm the citizenry better than the military (which I don’t see how would even be possible), then you will end up with a coup and a junta every time. I trust the founding principles of the United States, I don’t trust the people that run the country today because they have upset the system of checks and balances and are perverting the government for their own personal and party gain. The citizenry SHOULD BE the military force. It was only after Vietnam that we switched from a small core of professional soldiers that would train and lead a citizen army (militia/draftees) to an entire army of professional soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/59 "2009-02-01T09:11:27Z")
> [@achilles\_bogart](#): > > It was only after Vietnam that we switched from a small core of professional soldiers that would train and lead a citizen army (militia/draftees) to an entire army of professional soldiers. Vietnam taught us that the kind of wars the USA wanted to start fighting was not winnable with a citizen militia/conscript army. Nothing in the constitution says the government must employ a small core of professional soldiers that lead a citizen army to war, so what rights have we given up exactly? Is there something about the availability of weapons right now that bothers you? They seem pretty accessible to me. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/60 "2009-02-01T09:24:19Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Vietnam taught us that the kind of wars the USA wanted to start fighting was not winnable with a citizen militia/conscript army. Nothing in the constitution says the government must employ a small core of professional soldiers that lead a citizen army to war, so what rights have we given up exactly? Is there something about the availability of weapons right now that bothers you? They seem pretty accessible to me. Its the basic test of democracy that you trust the other guy to be able to run the country, when your guy loses . Given the current crop of democrats and their weapons platforms, I can understand when average people dont exactly feel secure that the second , or any of the amendments is off the table. So far ,none of the dems have suggested that the second is up for the high jump , there is a specific set of legal stuff that has to transpire before that can be enacted, so some folks look somewhat leary regarding the issue. I can live with Obama saying he does not like weapons or what ever , but as long as he finished that speech with but… shall not be infringed. Declan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942.md?page=4)