# Gun owners...how bad is it, how bad could it be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942 "2009-02-01T01:27:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/61 "2009-02-01T09:25:04Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It doesn’t surprise me, but you’re missing the entire point of having an armed citizenry to oppose totalitarianism. No; the point of an armed citizenry is more likely to be to impose tyranny, not oppose it. Armed citizens aren’t much of a threat to governments; that’s why a guy like Saddam didn’t care that the Iraqi populace had plenty of guns. What an armed citizenry does do is give more power to the thug element in society. Such as by assassinating doctors who perform abortions. If America does turn into a dictatorship, the gun lovers will more likely be using their guns to help hunt down and kill evil liberal traitors in death squads than they will be to use them to fight the government. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/62 "2009-02-01T09:47:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ve served in the US Military. I’m not going to beat an Apache helicopter with an Uzi. I wonder what would happen if you were the one with the Apache and **Weirddave** had the Uzi. Metaphorically speaking, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/63 "2009-02-01T09:51:39Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I wonder what would happen if you were the one with the Apache and **Weirddave** had the Uzi. Metaphorically speaking, I mean. Well if your gonna take potshots at a longbow with an uzi , you deserve what you get. But more realistically , you would tag the pilot on the ground , or the maitenance troops servicing it. Declan ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/64 "2009-02-01T12:13:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So can ANY government. If you don’t trust democracy, what are you going to replace it with? > > If you want to arm the citizenry better than the military (which I don’t see how would even be possible), then you will end up with a coup and a junta every time. > > This ludicrous idea that gun rights (which I support , incidentally) have anything to do with protecting citizens from the government is just so much BS rationalization. You want gun rights because you want guns. Just admit it. You don’t need any more noble reason than that. I disagree. I’ve got matches in the kitchen and a can of gasoline in the garage. That doesn’t mean I will burn down the neighbor’s house at the smallest provocation. I agree with you that these paramiltary militia groups are just engaging in penis extension activities. But when oppression and a totalitarian regime would take over this country; one so bad that you, me, and all of the posters in this forum would agree that it must be stopped, do you think it would be easier for them to succeed if we all had guns or if none of us did? Look at what the handful of terrorists in Iraq did to our miltary for several years.. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/65 "2009-02-01T12:50:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I agree with you that these paramiltary militia groups are just engaging in penis extension activities. But when oppression and a totalitarian regime would take over this country; one so bad that you, me, and all of the posters in this forum would agree that it must be stopped, do you think it would be easier for them to succeed if we all had guns or if none of us did? Here’s the problem; not only do the regime have quite considerably more and more impressive weapons at their disposal, the oppressing citizens are going to be armed, too. It’s not going to be a civilian resistance movment vs. the armed forces, it’ll be a civilian resistance movement vs. collaborative civilians and the armed forces. For every gun in the hands of you, me, or any of the posters here, there will be one in the hands of a civilian likewise dedicated to stopping us. Any regime that manages to convince a majority of the armed forces to happily go along with it’s coup is most likely going to be just as appealing to the populace at large. IOW, no, it would not be easier if we had guns, because it’d also mean there were more pointed at us. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/66 "2009-02-01T13:35:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I agree with you that these paramiltary militia groups are just engaging in penis extension activities. But when oppression and a totalitarian regime would take over this country; one so bad that you, me, and all of the posters in this forum would agree that it must be stopped, do you think it would be easier for them to succeed if we all had guns or if none of us did? It would make little to no difference. > [@jtgain](#): > > Look at what the handful of terrorists in Iraq did to our military for several years.. Yes; with bombs, rockets, and the majority support of the population against a foreign invader. Not guns. Iraq is a place where admitting you work with Americans can get you killed by your own family; not a totalitarian America which would almost certainly have many millions who support the government. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/67 "2009-02-01T14:04:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > … > > Look at what the handful of terrorists in Iraq did to our miltary for several years.. Commanded it? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/68 "2009-02-01T14:17:03Z")
No, but you can beat a helicopter with a rubber mallet. Or telephone wires. Dude, this isn’t what the argument’s about. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/69 "2009-02-01T15:14:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ve served in the US Military. I’m not going to beat an Apache helicopter with an Uzi. No, you’re not. But the pilots and ground crew like to go to the titty-bars as much as any other GI, and when they’re stumbling back to their cars at 2:00 AM in the morning, you and your UZI are going to be brief but rude surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/70 "2009-02-01T15:14:49Z")
Another fear I’ve heard about Obama is the idea that the moment the next SC justice steps down, Obama will appoint a replacement with a mind to overturn Heller. Now SC justices have a way of disappointing the presidents who pick them, but let’s say for the sake of argument Obama gets the most anti-gun judge possible on the court. Then what? The very next time a major gun case reached the SC (say, an attempt to force the city of Chicago to open it’s handgun resistry), can the court really completely reverse itself? It’s very rare for the SC to flatly overturn a previous ruling. Or would it be a case of tokenly acknowledging Heller but then emasculating it as far as possible? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/71 "2009-02-01T15:24:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; the point of an armed citizenry is more likely to be to impose tyranny, not oppose it. \What an armed citizenry does do is give more power to the thug element in society.. Thomas Jefferson is spinning in his grave. **Der Trihs** , you do realize that this Hobbesian view is exactly the opposite of the entire ideological basis the US was founded on? It seems to me to amount to saying “The Framers were fools and idiots”. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/72 "2009-02-01T15:30:47Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Or would it be a case of tokenly acknowledging Heller but then emasculating it as far as possible? This. Heller passed 5-4 along purely partisan lines, in spite of two decades of legal scholarship that overwhelmingly said “individual right.” It wouldn’t take much of a “swing” in the court to make “John Doe vs. City of Chicago” 5-4 against the plaintiff on the issue of registration, in which you can only register on one day a year, between the times of 9:00 AM and 9:15 AM. All paperwork must be obtained and filled out in the presence of the registration clerk, who just coincidentally goes on break from 9:00 to 9:15. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/73 "2009-02-01T15:40:36Z")
Oh, Lord, just keep the goddam things, if they mean that much to you. Some problems just don’t _have_ solutions. There will be no “gun control”, because its impossible. Can’t be done. And I, for one, am sick to death of arguing with guys who think _Red Dawn_ was a documentary. I’d be plumb tickled if the only people in America who had a hand gun were the people specifically authorized to possess one, but it ain’t gonna happen, and I’ve got bigger fish to fry. Keep 'em. _Muzzle tov_, much good may it do you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/74 "2009-02-01T15:50:07Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > in spite of two decades of legal scholarship that overwhelmingly said “individual right.” Overwhelmingly? You know better. You also know precedent established just the opposite view. And you know, for that matter, that \*Heller \*did no more than declare the “individual right” to extend to self-defense and hunting, no matter that you won’t find that anywhere in the Second. But for you this is obviously a matter of faith, not or fact or reason. If you want to believe the libruls wanna take away the symbols of your manhood, then that’s what you’re going to believe. As long as this forum is designated for witnessing as well as debate, though, this stuff is never going to get cleared up here, is it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/75 "2009-02-01T16:13:35Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Did you get out with a dishonorable discharge or did you manage to hide your cowardice? This is a Warning to take your attitude out of this Forum and stop picking fights with and insulting other posters for no reason. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/76 "2009-02-01T18:14:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Overwhelmingly? You know better. You also know precedent established just the opposite view. Elvis, you’re a dishonest debater, and you are simply wrong about most gun control. Especially about Heller. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/77 "2009-02-01T18:23:51Z")
Well, the hamsters ate my post. Twice. And then the board locked up and I couldn’t get into GD for ~30 minutes. It’s a good thing I save my posts in an email before posting. But I’m sure it’s all a harmless coincidence. Right, **tomndeb**? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Overwhelmingly? You know better. I’m forbidden from calling you a liar, so put up or shut up. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You also know precedent established just the opposite view. And you know, for that matter, that \*Heller \*did no more than declare the “individual right” to extend to self-defense and hunting, no matter that you won’t find that anywhere in the Second. Again, I am forbidden from calling you a liar, but you know good and well that precedent was fabricated out of whole cloth in Cases v. U.S. in 1942. You know that because I kicked your (and your litiginous lackey **Minty Greeen** ) ass with it in the Pit 2-3 years ago, and you crawled away from that thread rather than acknowledge the plain word reading paragraph-by-paragraph dissection of Miller I rubbed your nose in. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But for you this is obviously a matter of faith, not or fact or reason. Were you talking to me? I thought you were addressing your reflection in the mirror. 'Cause I can drag out every single post from that Pit thread and ten years of “Great” debates and reiterate them once again for one-and-all to see, _ **cites included** _, and then you can once again slink away like a snake in the grass until you feel enough time has passed for you to once again rear up and post your [del]lies[/del] [del]blatant untruths[/del] “misrepresentations.” > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you want to believe the libruls wanna take away the symbols of your manhood, then that’s what you’re going to believe. Oooh! Penis reference! You obviously “win” on merit, then. Not that I expect your tame attack dog moderators to even notice this, much less do anything about it. But you can sure bet I’m about to get smacked down for insinuating that you’re a [del]weasel and a liar[/del] “occasionally less than candid.” [When they tell me that’s what they want to do, why should I not believe them?](http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/urban_policy/#crime-and-law-enforcement) [When they have exactly that record of voting, why should I not think that they might just want to do that very thing?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama#Gun_control) Neither **Diogenes** , **Der Trihs** , **elucidator** , et. al, have ever offered an answer to those two questions. But they are sure damned quick to call gun owners and 2nd. Ad. activists “paranoid nuts.” > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As long as this forum is designated for witnessing as well as debate, though, this stuff is never going to get cleared up here, is it? It’ll get cleared up as soon as the current Congress and Administration feel they have the political capital to begin pushing the very platforms they have historically voted for, and that they openly espouse, and then it will be 1994 all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/78 "2009-02-01T18:31:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, Lord, just keep the goddam things, if they mean that much to you. Some problems just don’t _have_ solutions. There will be no “gun control”, because its impossible. Can’t be done. And I, for one, am sick to death of arguing with guys who think _Red Dawn_ was a documentary. I’d be plumb tickled if the only people in America who had a hand gun were the people specifically authorized to possess one, but it ain’t gonna happen, and I’ve got bigger fish to fry. > > Keep 'em. _Muzzle tov_, much good may it do you. I doubt very much that this is true. But I’ll keep this post and watch future gun control debates in the hope that you are more honest than most anti’s. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/79 "2009-02-01T18:36:13Z")
I don’t think **Lucy’s** an “anti.” I’m not either. Just because I think something is a legal right doesn’t mean I can’t find some of the people who exercise that right distasteful or disngenuous. I don’t think pop country should be illegal either, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t suck. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/80 "2009-02-01T18:42:08Z")
Oh my god. Are we arguing with **ElvisL1ves** and **Der Trihs** about gun control and _D.C. v. Heller_ again? I thought we had all learned our lesson last time. I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but let me see if I can recall their core points again: 1. _U.S. v. Miller_ says that only the militia is allowed to have guns on account of its assertion that only guns suitable for military use would be protected for ownership by an _individual_ (Miller) 2. Gun owners are all intolerant redneck caricatures who would gleefully side with the tyrants in murdering the gays and lib’ruls 3. We pathetic 2nd Amendment supporters need our steel penis extensions to feel sexually adequate Come on, guys; these two are disingenuous debaters. They keep railing off the same absurd strawmen and ad hominem attacks, and they haven’t yet offered any support for their more specific claims aside from _well, that’s the way I think it should be, so clearly the case law means that too_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942.md?page=5)