# Gun owners...how bad is it, how bad could it be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942 "2009-02-01T01:27:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/121 "2009-02-01T23:07:16Z")
Thanks, **Todderbob**. The inevitable further implication is that other than Ordinary Military (as in well-regulated militia) Equipment is not protected. Nor is it banned. It just isn’t addressed at all. _Heller_ added both self-defense and hunting “equipment” to that protected category, no matter their lack of basis in the actual Constitution. But, it too is now law, again like it or not. Our friends do actually know that, I trust. If not, there’s no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/122 "2009-02-01T23:08:25Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > **Der Trihs** , thank you for responding to my posts and clearly stating your position. The above quote is pretty unambiguous and at least lets us know where you stand. We needn’t then bother debating the petty details when there’s a Grand Canyon-sized gulf between our ideologies. > > As nearly as I can categorize your position from the content and tone of your posts, you appear to be what might be termed a “militant pacifist”, if that’s not a contradiction of terms. That is, you reject as false and hypocritical any claim that the use of violence, however restricted, can be morally justifiable. To your credit, you include the police and the government in your definition of guns being “completely illegal”. > > The problem is that adopting any moral position in rigid absolutist terms alienates not only those who fundamentally disagree with you, but those who would agree with you in principle but consider the proposed cure worse than the disease. Since the topic at issue consists of proposing that something harmful (guns) be banned from society without compromise, I see an analogy between gun prohibition and alcohol prohibtion. > > Imagine debating the merits of alcohol prohibition with an old-time Carry Nation type temperance crusader. To any criticism that total Prohibition was either undesirable or impractical, her response would typically be a vitriolic attack on any claim that alcohol use could ever be responsible or justifiable. She would denounce alcohol as “Demon Rum” and it’s users as morally degenerate inebriates. To any claim that local dry laws had accomplished nothing but bootlegging, speakeasies, rotgut hootch and a culture of scofflaws, she would merely insist that this showed that enforcement must be nationwide and stricter than ever. In short, she would come across as moralistic, militant if not outright fanatical, and humorlessly shrill. > > I submit that just as there were people who could honestly and intelligently disagree with Carrie Nation, there are people who disagree that gun prohibition would be a good idea. The opposite of “pacifist” is not “fascist” or “conquistadore”; it is people who reject the absolutist position that violence, and it’s instruments such as guns, is always wrong and never right. The people who believe in ownership of guns do so not because they love violence, but because they love peace. In an almost Zen-like paradox, it’s because they could use guns that they almost never need to. Most legal, responsible gun owners dedicate themselves to being masters of not using guns. There are many things that display a counter-intuitive behavior where what would seem to be the straightforward route in fact does not work. I and others believe that “no guns= no gun violence” is one of these. Lumpy… I think I love you… That was an eloquent, intelligent, well thought out post that I fear will zip right over the heads of those who believe in absolutism. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/123 "2009-02-01T23:13:19Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Lumpy… I think I love you… > That was an eloquent, intelligent, well thought out post that I fear will zip right over the heads of those who believe in absolutism. Have no fear; it will. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/124 "2009-02-01T23:23:04Z")
Thanks **Lumpy**. I avoided this thread for a long while precisely because it devolves into the same bullshit from the same shrill parties with absolute views. To make a parallel here; we don’t ban the Martial Arts out of fear of people learning how to beat the shit out of each other. While it is most certainly true that there are people in every dojo who are learning those skills precisely because they DO want to learn how to beat people up (I’ve met plenty of them in my time in the dojo), for the most part, Martial Artists are peace loving people who want to learn how to defend themselves, get in better shape, learn to better control their bodies, and learn more about themselves. The vast majority of gun owners are not out there owning guns with the secret hope of killing or shooting people; loonies posting “shoot the bastard!” in home invasion/home defense threads to the contrary. Hell, I’ve owned guns for over 30 years and have never shot anyone, despite carrying one on the job for over two of those years and living in a shit neighborhood for more than a decade. One of the great frauds of society is the idea that if we outlaw something, it will magically cease to be a problem. We can see the lie in that propositon every time we drive down the highway (speeding is illegal!), without ever getting into larger issues like prostitution, drugs, murder, and on and on, including guns. Of course, the absolutist argument is that we need to work harder, make stricter laws, make harsher penalties to finally wipe out the problem. This is a “solution” that turns us into monsters, that ends with tyrrany and death. It is an idea based not in reason or rational solution, but in irrational anger, fear and hatred of the thing the ideolog wishes to wipe from the face of the Earth. Thus the absolutist Ideolog is a much more dangerous enemy of Humanity than the thing they seek to ban. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/125 "2009-02-01T23:30:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The ruling is _Miller_ itself. You are quite capable of finding and reading it for yourself, and I repeat my strong suggestion that you do so. 0 for 4. Alright. My reading of _Miller_ is that the possession of a firearm is not protected under the Second Amendment if that firearm is not suitable for ordinary military use. Note that this agrees closely with the quotation provided by **Todderbob**. Unless we’re having a catastrophic failure of communication, it seems to me that _your_ contention is that _Miller_ says that the Second Amendment does not protect individual possession of firearms; only possession as part of a “well-regulated militia.” You went on to say: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The inevitable further implication is that other than Ordinary Military (as in well-regulated militia) Equipment is not protected. Nor is it banned. It just isn’t addressed at all. Quite so. However, have you not been arguing that this means that only the actual _use_ of such weapons in a well-regulated militia is protected? That is quite thoroughly outside the scope of the _Miller_ ruling. If this is not in fact what you have been arguing, I apologize for misinterpreting you: however, it has been difficult not to misinterpret you when you keep saying things like this: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You also know precedent established just the opposite view [to the individual right]. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > When [U.S. v. Miller] was the ruling precedent, it held that only militia use was protected. A handy quote from _D.C. v. Heller_, listed on the same page that **Todderbob** linked to: “Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons. It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment.” To restate: the entire nature of the ruling in _Miller_ was that certain _types_ of weapons were not subject to Second Amendment protections. Nothing was said about their actual use, only about their suitability for the purpose of a well-regulated militia. I believe I have substantiated my interpretation well enough. If yours is not in fact different from mine, I humbly await a well-deserved correction of my misapprehension of your stance. Otherwise, I’ll thank you to provide even a shred of evidence supporting your point of view. I would also like to take a moment to applaud **Lumpy** ’s appeal to reason and decency in this debate. :o ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/126 "2009-02-01T23:39:22Z")
Lumpy, that was a great post. I’ve copied it and will store it away - I know that it will be useful in the future. Isn’t it great when someone brings a breath of fresh air into something like this? ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/127 "2009-02-01T23:42:12Z")
Oh, and on a note from earlier in the discussion: > [@Todderbob](#): > > My understanding was that the definition of a militia (when it was written) was every able bodied man between the ages of 17 and 34. > > I assume that would be altered now to be every able bodied man and woman ages 17+. Nope; the militia of the United States of America is still statutorily defined to include all able-bodied males aged 17 through 45, as per 10 USC §311. It’s blatant sexism, I tells ya! NOW really ought to be pushing for equality on this one. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/128 "2009-02-01T23:45:46Z")
Nice effort, **Stealth Potato.** I made an identical argument to **Elvis** in The Pit about 2-3 years back, with no luck. The whole “collective rights” position seemed to be fabricated out of whole cloth in U.S. v. Tot (1942), wherein: > [@](#): > > It is abundantly clear both from the discussions of this amendment contemporaneous with its proposal and adoption and those of learned writers since[13] that this amendment, unlike those providing for protection of free speech and freedom of religion, was not adopted with individual rights in mind, but as a protection for the States in the maintenance of their militia organizations against possible encroachments by the federal power.[14] Maybe you can find the words to convince him, where I couldn’t. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/129 "2009-02-01T23:46:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We “arm the criminals” NOW. Most criminal’s weapons are **stolen**. Dry up the supply and you disarm them. :dubious: Firearms are not a consumable resource. Even if you can confiscate and destroy every legally owned firearm in the country, and somehow stop new guns from being smuggled into the country, it’s going to take a while before the guns already possessed by criminals are found by the police. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/130 "2009-02-01T23:55:44Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Nice effort, **Stealth Potato.** I made an identical argument to **Elvis** in The Pit about 2-3 years back, with no luck. Oh, I know. I just wanted to put my position out fairly on the off chance that I really had been misunderstanding what he was trying to say. I’m just an optimist, I guess. 😛 Unless he changes his story or provides some evidence, I’m done responding to him; this thread has seen enough derailment already. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/131 "2009-02-02T00:11:16Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Keeping guns in safes is common sense, some guns can be worth upwards of 1,000 dollars. Upwards of $1,000? My shotgun’s worth over that, and it’s… interesting, but not top grade. Top grade, you’re looking 20k worth of gun there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/132 "2009-02-02T01:23:58Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > As nearly as I can categorize your position from the content and tone of your posts, you appear to be what might be termed a “militant pacifist”, if that’s not a contradiction of terms. That is, you reject as false and hypocritical any claim that the use of violence, however restricted, can be morally justifiable. To your credit, you include the police and the government in your definition of guns being “completely illegal”. But not because I’m a pacifist; but because if the police and government have something, it isn’t completely illegal. > [@Todderbob](#): > > I submit that just as there were people who could honestly and intelligently disagree with Carrie Nation, there are people who disagree that gun prohibition would be a good idea. The opposite of “pacifist” is not “fascist” or “conquistadore”; it is people who reject the absolutist position that violence, and it’s instruments such as guns, is always wrong and never right. The people who believe in ownership of guns do so not because they love violence, but because they love peace. In an almost Zen-like paradox, it’s because they could use guns that they almost never need to. Most legal, responsible gun owners dedicate themselves to being masters of not using guns. There are many things that display a counter-intuitive behavior where what would seem to be the straightforward route in fact does not work. I and others believe that “no guns= no gun violence” is one of these. Garbage. The gun lovers support the Republican Party, because the Republican Party is the party of authoritarianism and guns. The party of thugs. The party of gay bashers and doctor killers. The gun lovers either want to kill people, or want their guns and are willing to sacrifice everyone and everything else to that chunk of metal. They don’t want peace, or freedom, or safety, or justice or prosperity; just guns, and they will sacrifice all of those things on the altar of guns. > [@Todderbob](#): > > I’m guessing you don’t understand how firearms work. In a society where people are allowed to own firearms, anyone can own a firearm. Even those who ‘pro government death squads’ would attack. > > In Rwanda, it didn’t take civilian firearms in order for genocide to occur. However, if everyone were armed there’s a chance that some of the Tutsis’ would’ve survived if the majority of them were armed, as the Hutu wouldn’t have wanted to risk their own lives to murder innocent people. > > It’s the funniest thing, mob mentality tends to break up rather quickly when the mob is being fired at by an individual with a gun wanting to defend himself. Oh, please. In the real world, bad people are at least as brave as good people. In the real world a mob with guns against a few people with guns will take a casualty or two and massacre the outnumbered defenders. > [@Todderbob](#): > > You’ll note (or, more likely, you won’t, since it would interfere with your carefully crafted, cherrypicked argument) that ‘government death squads’ don’t need firearms. They only need mob mentality. They do make those death squads more efficient, especially when it’s the side that doesn’t have a gun fetish that is the target. > [@Todderbob](#): > > Keeping all the guns in your home in a safe, secured, is smart. Barring one, if you’re going to be home. A pistol on the nightstand, you know. 😉 - BANG \* “Oh, sorry Sis. Thought you were a burglar.” But hey, it doesn’t matter if you accidentally kill someone. They might have died, but they died for the only thing that matters to those like you : guns. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/133 "2009-02-02T01:38:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But not because I’m a pacifist; but because if the police and government have something, it isn’t completely illegal. Tell me, in your proposed world of “Guns are completely illegal for everyone, even the government and cops,” how does a nation defend itself from another nation? How does a police officer defend a citizen from an armed criminal? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. The gun lovers support the Republican Party, because the Republican Party is the party of authoritarianism and guns. The party of thugs. The party of gay bashers and doctor killers. The gun lovers either want to kill people, or want their guns and are willing to sacrifice everyone and everything else to that chunk of metal. They don’t want peace, or freedom, or safety, or justice or prosperity; just guns, and they will sacrifice all of those things on the altar of guns. 1st: I’d thank you to get your quotes right, **I** didn’t say that. 2nd: Not all gun owners support the Republican Party. Your statements are equally absolutist, and equally extreme. They are akin to the statement ‘all blacks are bad,’ in that they are equally unfounded and ignorant. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. In the real world, bad people are at least as brave as good people. In the real world a mob with guns against a few people with guns will take a casualty or two and massacre the outnumbered defenders. > > They do make those death squads more efficient, especially when it’s the side that doesn’t have a gun fetish that is the target. [Mob Mentality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_mentality) breaks very easily in the face of potential personal harm. If you think attackers are as brave as defenders, you’re intentionally ignorant and obtuse. Defenders have their lives at risk, they **can’t** leave. Attackers can end a confrontation by simply walking away. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > - BANG \* > > “Oh, sorry Sis. Thought you were a burglar.” > > But hey, it doesn’t matter if you accidentally kill someone. They might have died, but they died for the only thing that matters to those like you : guns. I don’t have any sisters. I also wouldn’t fire a weapon unless I knew, without question, who was on the other end of the barrel. It’s become blatantly obvious from this post that you don’t care about reason, you simply care about getting the last word in and being right. Your world is one of false ideals and extremism. I’m glad I don’t live in it, and I’m glad reality doesn’t reflect it. ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/134 "2009-02-02T02:00:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. The gun lovers support the Republican Party, because the Republican Party is the party of authoritarianism and guns. The party of thugs. The party of gay bashers and doctor killers. The gun lovers either want to kill people, or want their guns and are willing to sacrifice everyone and everything else to that chunk of metal. They don’t want peace, or freedom, or safety, or justice or prosperity; just guns, and they will sacrifice all of those things on the altar of guns. I would like to introduce you to [Pink Pistols](http://www.pinkpistols.org/). In case you don’t feel like clicking the link the Pink Pistols are a gay gun rights organization in the United States and Canada. Their main motto is “Armed gays don’t get bashed”. These people are not gay bashers nor thugs. These are people, who because of their sexual lifestyle, have been bashed and bullied and thugged about. These are people who realize that guns are tools to be used in self-defense. These are people who choose not to be victims. And I can guarantee you the majority of them are not Republican. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/135 "2009-02-02T02:35:24Z")
Guys, seriously, can we stop the defense thing? Der and Elvis deserve each other. It’s just the same old issue anyhow, let them howl. The main question’s been answered pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/136 "2009-02-02T03:55:31Z")
Yeah, I think Der Trihs has ascended to the level of self-parody now, and any challenge to his hatred and his prejudices will go unheeded. I guess he feels that repeating the same bigoted nonsense over and over again, in increasingly spittle-flecked tones, will somehow validate his absurd caricatures of gun owners. I mean, honestly. I don’t like NASCAR, and I didn’t even watch the _Superbowl_. What kind of gun owner am I? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![achilles\_bogart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@achilles\_bogart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achilles_bogart)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/137 "2009-02-02T04:02:04Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > What kind of gun owner am I? :dubious: A good Seattle one. Sports has been dead up here for years. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/138 "2009-02-02T04:03:21Z")
Shut it down Tom…it’s totally off the rails and I think I got my answer already. -XT ---
**Author:** ![wsbenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@wsbenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wsbenge)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/139 "2009-02-02T04:18:08Z")
Hoarding won’t work. The stash will simply be taken from them, when the time comes, unless they can organize. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942/140 "2009-02-02T04:19:29Z")
> [@achilles\_bogart](#): > > A good Seattle one. Sports has been dead up here for years. Hey, I still cheer for the Mariners… as painful as that may be most of the time. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-how-bad-is-it-how-bad-could-it-be/483942.md?page=8)