# Gun owner's liability when it comes mishaps involving their children **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975 "2021-04-14T14:48:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/124 "2021-06-13T16:18:37Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I’m not sure. Mass, NY, & NJ have some of the toughest gun laws in the US and these 3 states have the lowest gun death rate of any states. At least [according to the CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm). > > So it does look like tougher gun laws do reduce the death rate. So they would probably reduce the number of guns left accessible to children and teens. Living in MA now, I have to wonder if this is causality or correlation. MA has a (for the US) low rate of gun ownership and a high rate of legal strictures (on everything), so maybe both the tough gun laws and low gun deaths are cultural phenomena rather than one causing the other. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/125 "2021-06-13T16:39:06Z")
I am aware of that ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/126 "2021-06-13T16:40:49Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I jailing _ever_ appropriate, in your opinion? Only under circumstances where other options do not exist and it is a necessity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/127 "2021-06-13T16:41:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Only under circumstances where other options do not exist and it is a necessity For example…? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/128 "2021-06-14T12:25:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For example…? Above my pay grade and too far irrelevant to the OP which is about a specific circumstance to which I will say I don’t like the idea of criminalizing tragic accidents and set the concept of justice is that you are made whole again by destroying another’s life (which ultimately does not make anyone whole). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/129 "2021-06-14T13:03:41Z")
The decision not to properly secure a weapon is not an accident. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/130 "2021-06-14T14:57:45Z")
In your example it perhaps an inference can be drawn that the child found an unsecured gun, but does not explicitly say that. The gun may have been properly and legally secured. Here’s one such device that a child’s toy could be used to open… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/q8AP5XYs8jg/maxresdefault.jpg "[1024] AR-15 Lock Defeated With LEGO Astronaut!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8AP5XYs8jg) There are may more examples of secure gun locks that a child could easily open for play purposes or in the case when a child needs a firearm for its intended purpose. So in short in your example it is unknown if a gun was secured or not nor the purpose the child used it. Without those questions answered It’s impossible to provide what my opinion of any legal aspects of such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/131 "2021-06-14T15:05:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > {…} Here’s one such device that a child’s toy could be used to open… {…} Did you actually watch that video? 'Cause no lock was was opened with a Lego. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/132 "2021-06-14T15:28:09Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > no lock was was opened with a Lego. You are correct in this, but the lock was defeated Well OK how about using a twig then… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/lJaca6MgrA0/maxresdefault.jpg "[782] Visualock Gun Lock Opened With a TWIG!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJaca6MgrA0) And I can go through a list of gun safes as well that a child could reasonable defeat. So we would have to start at the beginning of what is the requirement of securing a firearm and where the fault lies in vulnerabilities that may exist. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/133 "2021-06-14T15:33:12Z")
Yes, LPP’s point is “Don’t buy shitty gun locks”. I’d point out there’s no legal requirement that one must manufacture a functional gun lock, so the market is flooded with ‘’‘gun locks’’’ that are in no way gun locks. Why one would want a gun lock that a child _could_ open remains a question. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/134 "2021-06-14T15:43:36Z")
Just 'cause this came up in my subscriptions, [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/8tAbaqBy1Bc/maxresdefault.jpg "Gun Storage: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly of Gun Safes and Locks") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tAbaqBy1Bc) ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/135 "2021-06-14T16:24:28Z")
Good video. It brings us back to my earlier point that some sort of actual federal standards on the various mechanisms are a good idea. Very little is going to be perfect, as even the most solid vault style safes can be undone by sufficient neglect (I had a friend who used to have the combination to his vault style safe written on the whiteboard next to it because he kept forgetting 🤷‍♂️ ). I suspect like ‘child-proof’ caps, at some level we’ll have to find an option where hopefully the effort to get to the firearms is sufficient to deter most attempts, but it’s never going to be 100%. Which is why I respected @Crafter_Man 's post (#86 I believe) in which he discussed the importance of education and removing the mystique of firearms. We didn’t absolutely agree of course, and he made the concession that the situation dramatically changes if you have people in your house that you cannot be sure of, you have to alter your preparations. The last word I think is key for any scenario - plan ahead or expect a visit from Murphy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/136 "2021-06-14T16:27:39Z")
I don’t normally watch viddies that are over an hour long…but this is not a normal video. I am 42 minutes into it, and learning a _lot_ about gun security. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/137 "2021-06-14T17:10:29Z")
Just finished it, and am feeling a lot less confident concerning those who say, “Don’t worry-I keep my guns secure.” ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/138 "2021-06-14T17:36:07Z")
Thanks that was really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/139 "2021-06-15T23:23:14Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > _I had a friend who used to have the combination to his vault style safe written on the whiteboard next to it because he kept forgetting_ That happens a lot. Indeed, when encountering a coded door at work I would usually search around the near walls to find the combination written on it somewhere nearby. I went back to one of the old firm’s places last week and they were still doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/140 "2021-06-24T16:55:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Wanting to safeguard the weapon from children while wanting instant access to said weapon in the middle of the night-not a simple problem to solve. It’s actually pretty simple. You separate the ammunition from the gun . ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/141 "2021-06-27T15:57:34Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > LPP’s point is “Don’t buy shitty gun locks”. > I’d point out there’s no legal requirement that one must manufacture a functional gun lock, so the market is flooded with ‘’‘gun locks’’’ that are in no way gun locks. > > Why one would want a gun lock that a child _could_ open remains a question. On my less generous days I suspect a conspiracy from the accessories industry wanting to make you go through dozens of different aftermarket items of increased priceyness until you find the right one that works for you. LPL’s latest very stupidly overpriced example [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H82WX4sJBcs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H82WX4sJBcs) As to that final question: because many people _don’t_ really want a true safety lock, they are just checking the box of “yes, a locking device exists” for the sake of some liability coverage. (I suppose some of them also, for some reason, presume their children are absolute imbeciles.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/142 "2021-06-27T17:11:11Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > This is saying that only rich people can use their second amendment rights and is pretty disgusting. So do you think everyone should be provided a free gun? Should we all be provided a free printing press and national news agency too? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975/143 "2021-06-27T18:09:10Z")
You can get a gun pretty cheap. If you make an effective lock for the gun unaffordable, people will still get the gun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-owners-liability-when-it-comes-mishaps-involving-their-children/939975.md?page=8)