# Gun Proponents: What's Your End Game? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243 "2009-02-17T06:35:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/1 "2009-02-17T06:35:28Z")
Gun rights proponents: what would society look like if the laws surrounding guns were to your liking? What percent of people would carry guns on a regular basis? Would people carry guns openly or concealed? Would you restrict carrying guns in courthouses, schools, bars? Who, if anyone, would you prevent from owning a gun: felons, the mentally ill, children? Would you place any restrictions on guns: fully auto, large caliber, guns disguised as cell phones? And please, gun control proponents lets not turn this into a debate on guns. We’ve had plenty of those. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/2 "2009-02-17T06:54:25Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Gun rights proponents: what would society look like if the laws surrounding guns were to your liking? We shall explore this interesting society! > [@DanBlather](#): > > What percent of people would carry guns on a regular basis? As many as wanted to, and were safe in doing so. > [@DanBlather](#): > > Would people carry guns openly or concealed? That would be their option. A Carry permit would permit either. > [@DanBlather](#): > > Would you restrict carrying guns in courthouses, schools, bars? Courthouses: unsure. Possibly. Schools: No - I would encourage teachers (who are entrusted with protecting their pupils) to carry weapons. Bars: Permits would have an Alcoholic Consumption clause. If you drink - any - you don’t carry. > [@DanBlather](#): > > Who, if anyone, would you prevent from owning a gun: felons, the mentally ill, children? Violent Criminals, no matter the severity of the crime. Certain, less serious, violent crimes would be treated with more leniency. A felony conviction, in itself, would not bar you from owning a firearm - plenty of people get felony convictions for embezzlement or insider trading and show no propensity towards violence. > [@DanBlather](#): > > Would you place any restrictions on guns: fully auto, large caliber, guns disguised as cell phones? No, no and no. My world would be relatively simple: You have a right to own a firearm in much the same way you have the right to own an automobile. You do not, however, have a right to expose others to your automobile without first being properly licensed; you do not have a right to carry your weapon in public without first being properly licensed. Drivers Licenses are _Shall Issue_, and in my world, Carry Licenses are _Shall Issue._ Basic tests are still required, proficiency and prudence, of course. I don’t believe it’s necessary, or prudent, to license each firearm individually. Nor do I think it’s necessary or prudent to register them / take ballistic imprints of them (for practicality and expense). ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/3 "2009-02-17T08:16:52Z")
I think an important question missing in the original post is “what, if any, licensing requirements would you like to see for a person to carry a firearm?” Todderbob was kind enough to answer it without being asked, but I’m curious to see how others answer it. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/4 "2009-02-17T08:24:11Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Todderbob was kind enough to answer it without being asked, but I’m curious to see how others answer it. Two things I’m almost always happy to talk about; Firearms, and my opinions. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/5 "2009-02-17T09:38:30Z")
What percent of people would carry guns on a regular basis? **Whomever qualified and wanted to. Permits would be "Shall Issue."** Would people carry guns openly or concealed? **Concealed Only** Would you restrict carrying guns in courthouses, schools, bars? **Yes** Who, if anyone, would you prevent from owning a gun: felons, the mentally ill, children? **Yes** Would you place any restrictions on guns: fully auto, large caliber, guns disguised as cell phones? **None** (You’d even be allowed “the thing that goes up” 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/6 "2009-02-17T11:43:24Z")
What percent of people would carry guns on a regular basis? Don’t actually care. More interested in the fact that people would be able to carry guns from place A to place B without harassment. Would people carry guns openly or concealed? I wouldn’t mind both options. If only because of the fact that sometimes things get a bit hinky about open carry and, say, wearing a coat that may or may not cover said gun. Would you restrict carrying guns in courthouses, schools, bars? Probably a really good idea. Note that having one in the trunk of your car in said location, not restricted. Who, if anyone, would you prevent from owning a gun: felons, the mentally ill, children? Children is iffy. Owning, yes, strictly speaking, the parent would own the gun, but I see no reason someone as young as 8 couldn’t go hunting. Would you place any restrictions on guns: fully auto, large caliber, guns disguised as cell phones? No, don’t see why, offhand. Heck, I’d join a private militia if I could. It’d be good exercise. And patriotic. Without having to worry about Uncle Sugar activating me. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/7 "2009-02-17T13:32:06Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > (You’d even be allowed “the thing that goes up” 😃 ) Where is that expression from? It sounds like Seuss… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/8 "2009-02-17T14:06:43Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Gun rights proponents: what would society look like if the laws surrounding guns were to your liking? Personally I don’t think society would be radically changed from what it is now. Yes, I’m a proponent of the people’s right to bear arms, but I don’t see firearms as a cure all for societies crime problems. Having more liberal gun laws isn’t going to make bad neighborhoods safe. At least not alone. So I’ll go out on a limb and say that there won’t be any big changes to society if gun laws were more to my liking. Though I have to say that for the most part gun laws are to my liking. At least they were in Arkansas and Texas. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/9 "2009-02-17T14:50:26Z")
This seems like a poll, especially in view of the fact that the OP has specifically asked for no debate on some of the core items here. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/10 "2009-02-17T14:57:42Z")
How would you even disguise a decent gun as a cell phone these days? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/11 "2009-02-17T15:08:18Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Where is that expression from? It sounds like Seuss… Actually, it’s a quote from a congresscritter, attempting to explain what a… I think Barrel Shroud is, while actually describing… uhm. A collapsible stock, maybe? You can’t disguise a decent gun as a cell phone, but maybe a .22 or .177 could be crammed in. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/12 "2009-02-17T15:29:42Z")
I don’t want to broaden the debate - but I will observe that the phrase “end game” is far more closely associated with those that oppose firearms than those that favor them. I don’t oppose reasonable restrictions on firearms use - barring them from courthouses and their possession from felons and the mentally ill. I think children should use them only under close supervision. Regarding schools I think the current system is too strict - in my youth schools still had shooting clubs and teams on site. I see no reason why this should be banned everywhere, but I’d let individual communities decide this. I would force no law abiding citizen to own a gun, but for those that wished to do so, there should be few restrictions on this right. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/13 "2009-02-17T15:41:47Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > We shall explore this interesting society! > Bars: Permits would have an Alcoholic Consumption clause. If you drink - any - you don’t carry. This sounds emminently reasonable. Alcohol and guns don’t mix. But in that world, knowing that you were free to carry guns everywhere EXCEPT in a bar, wouldn’t it make criminals, who don’t care about the law to begin with, more likely to carry there? Wouldn’t it mean that if there was a barfight and one side had an illegal gun and the other was unarmed, the one with the gun was at a distinct advantage? The criminal knows this. Wouldn’t it make sense to carry a gun yourself so as to remain on par with the criminal? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/14 "2009-02-17T15:48:41Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > This sounds emminently reasonable. Alcohol and guns don’t mix. > But in that world, knowing that you were free to carry guns everywhere EXCEPT in a bar, wouldn’t it make criminals, who don’t care about the law to begin with, more likely to carry there? Wouldn’t it mean that if there was a barfight and one side had an illegal gun and the other was unarmed, the one with the gun was at a distinct advantage? The criminal knows this. Wouldn’t it make sense to carry a gun yourself so as to remain on par with the criminal? That’s at least two Lynyrd Skynyrd songs right there. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/15 "2009-02-17T16:15:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Gun rights proponents: what would society look like if the laws surrounding guns were to your liking? It would look much like it looks today (though hopefully more economically prosperous). There would be less stupid and knee jerk regulation of firearms and more thoughtful and worthwhile regulation. The left wingers would finally have given up on this crusade to save us from the evils of guns (and perhaps gone on to save us from the evils of meat or something else) and would no longer be looking for every chance or sneaky ploy to chip away at gun owners rights with the ultimate goal of banning everything they can. > [@](#): > > What percent of people would carry guns on a regular basis? Everyone. It would be mandatory for every citizen, especially those who are pre-disposed to fear and hate guns, to carry one on their person at all times. In fact…perhaps they would have to carry two. > [@](#): > > Would people carry guns openly or concealed? As a compromise the would carry semi-concealed. But since everyone would, by law, have to carry a gun, it wouldn’t really matter so much anymore. > [@](#): > > Would you restrict carrying guns in courthouses, schools, bars? They would carry them everywhere…courthouses, schools, bars, sporting events, tea parties, to the bathroom. There would be a clause in the law that would require them to be worn to bed and during sex as well. It would make Presidential speeches much more exciting events in the future, to say the least. Too bad Bush won’t be president when this happy day arrives. > [@](#): > > Who, if anyone, would you prevent from owning a gun: felons, the mentally ill, children? As a concession to the left, mentally ill children who are felons would only be required to carry a single small caliber gun, and they would be exempt from carrying it during shock treatments or while wearing straight jackets. No one can accuse us gun proponents of not being willing to bend over backwards to work with the other side. > [@](#): > > Would you place any restrictions on guns: fully auto, large caliber, guns disguised as cell phones? I think that the guns would be restricted to whatever the citizen can handle (except in the above case of a restriction on mentally ill children who are felons). A 100 year old granny will probably not be able to handle a mini-gun, for instance, and must limit her two guns to much smaller calibers. As yet a further concession to the left I would have no problem keeping nukes out of the hands of private citizens as well. > [@](#): > > And please, gun control proponents lets not turn this into a debate on guns. We’ve had plenty of those. You probably put this in the wrong forum then. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/16 "2009-02-17T16:17:07Z")
I haven’t read every post, but I did read the one in which Todderbob felt it was OK for certain teachers to carry. How easy it would be for high school (even juniot high school) thugs to disarm a teacher and do what they want with the weapon. And at least one of you thinks carrying in court houses is fine and dandy. This is a swell idea, so long as you’re not the judge, or in any way associated with the proceedings, who would/could be targets in the mind of the pistol packing person. Then again, you could be an innocent bystander in that courthouse who ends up taking a shot to the heart from a disgruntled gun toter, who, exercising his constitutional right to bear arms, first packed, then pulled out his weapon and began firing it about. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/17 "2009-02-17T16:17:53Z")
There’s a good point. The term ‘end game’ really has no meaning here. There’s nothing to be working towards. Stuff to be working against, like further restrictions on a Constitutional right for insufficient reasons, for example. It’s not that I’m against gun control. I’m certainly against _symbolic_ gun control, like the AWB, and I’m against gun control that isn’t enforced, and I’m against gun control that is a grevious restriction on a constitutional right. Enforcing and eliminating loopholes on one law would have made it much harder for the VT shooter to get his guns, for example. The laws were in place, just not functional. I can live just fine with how things are right now, more or less. I wouldn’t mind if the severe restrictions in NY were scaled back a bit. (NY, not NYC), and I wouldn’t mind having a full-auto gun, either. Don’t need it, but, you know, every life needs awesome. I’d probably use it for nothing more than shooting old computer equipment that really, really ticked me off before I decommissioned it, mind you. … I wonder if I can write off ammo as a business expense if I use it to wipe hard drives with. We _are_ mandated to protect client data. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/18 "2009-02-17T16:44:05Z")
> [@BarnOwl](#): > > How easy it would be for high school (even juniot high school) thugs to disarm > a teacher and do what they want with the weapon. How is this any different from _anyone_ carrying a gun? Why is it more likely to happen to a teacher than anyone else? > [@](#): > > And at least one of you thinks carrying in court houses is fine and dandy. This is a swell idea, so long as you’re not the judge, or in any way associated with the proceedings, who would/could be targets in the mind of the pistol packing person. > > Then again, you could be an innocent bystander in that courthouse who ends up taking a shot to the heart from a disgruntled gun toter, who, exercising his constitutional right to bear arms, first packed, then pulled out his weapon and began firing it about. Again, why is this scenario more likely (or more terrible) in a courthouse than anywhere else? ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/19 "2009-02-17T17:09:51Z")
> [@BarnOwl](#): > > And at least one of you thinks carrying in court houses is fine and dandy. This is a swell idea, so long as you’re not the judge, or in any way associated with the proceedings, who would/could be targets in the mind of the pistol packing person. you mean the same person that also said in the same paragraph that guns should be carried by everyone even whilst having sex? Are you sure they were being serious about that? It sort of seems like your just taking the most extreme example, and one that in this case may very well have been sarcasm, and arguing against that as if it were the majority opinion. I’ll give you points for adding a nice layer of subtlety to your strawmanning, but it doesn’t make it any more valid. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243/20 "2009-02-17T17:11:29Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Where is that expression from? It sounds like Seuss… [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ospNRk2uM3U/hqdefault.jpg "Carolyn McCarthy") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ospNRk2uM3U) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-proponents-whats-your-end-game/486243.md?page=2)