# Gun Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045 "2018-06-30T15:08:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/1 "2018-06-30T15:08:55Z")
This OP is in two parts: “The only thing that stops a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun.” EVERYONE assumes they are the Good Guy…even the “Bad Guys” themselves! That’s why they feel justified in going out and start shooting…to punish, pre-emptively/prophylactically stopping a threat, or going down in a blaze of glory as an inspirational/symbolic act of…whatever “virtuous” agenda they’re trying to push. _Robbing someone at gunpoint is just “work” to them._ Discuss. “…Shall Not Be Infringed.” ? Lets suppose we have a responsible gun store owner…one who actually discerns the capacity of his prospective customers…observes several individuals who are plainly visually impaired, mentally/psychologically challenged, and one known to be a violent criminal. Individuals who “shouldn’t” have access to firearms. Would refusing to sell to these individuals be “infringing the right to bear arms”, or must he sell to a disaster waiting to happen? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/2 "2018-06-30T15:33:04Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > … EVERYONE assumes they are the Good Guy…even the “Bad Guys” themselves! That’s why they feel justified in going out and start shooting…to punish, pre-emptively/prophylactically stopping a threat, or going down in a blaze of glory as an inspirational/symbolic act of…whatever “virtuous” agenda they’re trying to push… Without any evidence to back up this claim, I"m inclined to believe it’s false. I suspect some criminals are fairly self-aware and know that they’re shitty people. > [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > … must he sell to a disaster waiting to happen? No, and I’ve heard of gun shops refusing to make a sale they felt uncomfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/3 "2018-06-30T16:15:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Without any evidence to back up this claim, I"m inclined to believe it’s false. I suspect some criminals are fairly self-aware and know that they’re shitty people. > No, and I’ve heard of gun shops refusing to make a sale they felt uncomfortable with. It happens. Watch Steven Crowder try to buy guns at gun sales and stores without a background check. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/4 "2018-06-30T18:14:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Without any evidence to back up this claim, I"m inclined to believe it’s false. I suspect some criminals are fairly self-aware and know that they’re shitty people. Sure, true for some, but certainly not all. I’m with you in suspecting some criminals are self-aware enough to know that what they’re doing is wrong, but also suspect there are other self-aware criminals who consider their own actions superior to or outside of the law, and still others who are not sufficiently self-aware and who think that what they’re doing is only right. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/5 "2018-06-30T19:25:30Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > Would refusing to sell to these individuals be “infringing the right to bear arms”, or must he sell to a disaster waiting to happen? The Second Amendment only applies to governments, not private businesses, so no, a business that refuses to sell cannot be in breach of the Second Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/6 "2018-06-30T19:58:31Z")
This issue is made more difficult by trying to clarify the rules, instead of easier as might be expected. The outcome is the issue, not the clarity or consistency of the law. Currently in the US, the outcome is a vast number of violent deaths, violent crimes, threats, and widespread fear. Analyze and change the laws with the purpose of improving the outcome, not to maximize their internal theoretical consistency. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/7 "2018-07-03T13:59:58Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > This OP is in two parts: > > “The only thing that stops a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun.” > > EVERYONE assumes they are the Good Guy…even the “Bad Guys” themselves! That’s why they feel justified in going out and start shooting…to punish, pre-emptively/prophylactically stopping a threat, or going down in a blaze of glory as an inspirational/symbolic act of…whatever “virtuous” agenda they’re trying to push. > > _Robbing someone at gunpoint is just “work” to them._ > > Discuss. This is dumb. Noone who robs people for a living is arguably a good guy with a gun. > [@](#): > > “…Shall Not Be Infringed.” ? > > Lets suppose we have a responsible gun store owner…one who actually discerns the capacity of his prospective customers…observes several individuals who are plainly visually impaired, mentally/psychologically challenged, and one known to be a violent criminal. > > Individuals who “shouldn’t” have access to firearms. > > Would refusing to sell to these individuals be “infringing the right to bear arms”, or must he sell to a disaster waiting to happen? The prohibition from infringing on rights is not directed at the general population, it is directed at the government. I can say no guns in the house and I would not be violating the 2nd amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/8 "2018-07-03T14:08:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is dumb. Noone who robs people for a living is arguably a good guy with a gun Robin Hood? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/9 "2018-07-03T14:11:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Robin Hood? Bow, not gun ETA: I should take this opportunity to denounce stealing from the rich, or really stealing from anyone at all. Stealing is wrong kids. Don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/10 "2018-07-03T14:18:15Z")
How about if you’re stealing it _back_? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/11 "2018-07-03T14:39:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The prohibition from infringing on rights is not directed at the general population, it is directed at the government. I can say no guns in the house and I would not be violating the 2nd amendment. But there are other prohibitions that prevent the general population from refusing to serve certain, suspect classes. If you are a gun shop owner, you cannot refuse to sell guns to black people. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/12 "2018-07-03T14:58:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Bow, not gun > > ETA: I should take this opportunity to denounce stealing from the rich, or really stealing from anyone at all. Stealing is wrong kids. Don’t do it. Were the bundy’s the good guys or the bad guys with the gun when they initiated an armed standoff with federal agents in order to continue to steal from the community? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/13 "2018-07-03T15:02:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Were the bundy’s the good guys or the bad guys with the gun when they initiated an armed standoff with federal agents in order to continue to steal from the community? They were the “not guilty” guys. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/14 "2018-07-03T15:41:36Z")
That wasn’t the question. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/15 "2018-07-03T16:01:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They were the “not guilty” guys. How often is it said on these forums that, if you disagree with the police’s lawful orders, that you should still follow them, and take your day in court? Did they follow this advice? Yeah, cop thinks he sees you reach towards your waist, and he blows you away and it’s your fault, even if you didn’t do anything at all.’ But, if you ignore law enforcement’s orders and threaten to kill them, then you are a hero of the right. I’ll take it that you feel that they were the good guys with the guns, then, as you have gone to great lengths to avoid answering a very simple question. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/16 "2018-07-03T16:19:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That wasn’t the question. Everybody is a law-abiding good guy until they’re not, right big guy? All it takes is one bad day… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/17 "2018-07-03T16:31:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How often is it said on these forums that, if you disagree with the police’s lawful orders, that you should still follow them, and take your day in court? Did they follow this advice? > > Yeah, cop thinks he sees you reach towards your waist, and he blows you away and it’s your fault, even if you didn’t do anything at all.’ > > But, if you ignore law enforcement’s orders and threaten to kill them, then you are a hero of the right. > > I’ll take it that you feel that they were the good guys with the guns, then, as you have gone to great lengths to avoid answering a very simple question. One post is “great lengths” in your eyes? That’s weird. As for the Bundys, I have mixed feelings on the topic. Ideally, people would not resort to violence, or threats of violence to achieve their political goals. It’s the course I’d recommend. OTOH, a jury of their peers have largely excused the actions of the Bundys and their supporters. I would hesitate to apply the “good guys” label to them ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/18 "2018-07-03T16:32:01Z")
So the yahoos pointing their guns at cops were “law-abiding good guys” because they hadn’t actually pulled the trigger? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Goodnight-Loving](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9fc29f/32.png) [@Goodnight-Loving](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goodnight-Loving)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/19 "2018-07-03T16:38:50Z")
Ask OJ. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045/20 "2018-07-03T16:44:22Z")
> [@Goodnight-Loving](#): > > Ask OJ. OJ pointed his gun at cops but didn’t pull the trigger? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-rights/817045.md?page=2)