# Gun Shot Survival Rate **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 15, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503 "2003-03-15T02:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/21 "2003-03-16T05:18:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KCSuze \* > \*\*Hey, where’s my welcome? I feel so unloved! 🙂 > > \*\* I can only cite the lateness of the hour, good beer, and bad eyesight as my excuse for missing you… my apologies. Welcome aboard, **KCSuze!** Bit of a hijack, really : I should mention that I am also an ex-Marine, and perhaps your coworker is only trying to impress you. I’ve known quite a few Marines who would talk that way for that reason. To borrow a Navy phrase, the only difference between a fairy tale and a “sea story” is that fairy tales begin “once upon a time…” and sea stories begin “Now this ain’t no shit…” Go easy on 'im, eh? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/22 "2003-03-16T05:28:44Z")
Welcome to the boards. Uh… basically tell him that anything that goes through the brain that’s the size of a bullet is going to kill except in extremely rare cases, where the guy is turned into a vegetable. ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/23 "2003-03-16T05:41:53Z")
Thanks for the welcome, **hammerbach**. I feel so warm and tingly inside now! > [@](#): > > I should mention that I am also an ex-Marine, and perhaps your coworker is only trying to impress you. I’ve known quite a few Marines who would talk that way for that reason. To borrow a Navy phrase, the only difference between a fairy tale and a “sea story” is that fairy tales begin “once upon a time…” and sea stories begin “Now this ain’t no shit…” Hmm…you have a point there. Okay, I’ll hold off on adulterating his coffee in unspeakable ways…for now. 😉 And thanks again for the info, everyone. You’ve opened my eyes to the possibilities of blowing a person’s head off. ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/24 "2003-03-16T05:46:17Z")
**SenorBeef** –interestingly enough, he did mention that the best way to kill someone is to shoot them at the very top of the spine with the barrel pointing upwards toward the skull. He said that way, the bullet severs the spinal cord and enters the brain. Is this true? ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/25 "2003-03-16T08:20:42Z")
Wow, I want to work where you work. What is so bad/good about wood-core bullets? Would they just disperse like crazy in the body or what? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/26 "2003-03-16T15:04:18Z")
I imagine the best way to kill someone would probably involve hacking the said person into chunks no larger than 2cm and then burning the chunks until hey are a fine ash. Any method that leaves a person in less than 5 pieces cannot guarentee they are dead IMHO :D. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/27 "2003-03-16T17:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KCSuze \* > \*\ ***SenorBeef** –interestingly enough, he did mention that the best way to kill someone is to shoot them at the very top of the spine with the barrel pointing upwards toward the skull. He said that way, the bullet severs the spinal cord and enters the brain. Is this true? \*\* I’m not positive, but it certainly sounds reasonable. The most efficient way to kill with a gun is to cripple the central nervous system, and shooting in a way that will destroy parts of the spine and brain seems ideal. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/28 "2003-03-16T17:11:49Z")
IIRC, wood cored bullets have a tendency to shatter and splinter off into the body, causing nasty internal bleeding and often infection. For some reason, the body has a harder time adjusting to tiny wood fragments in itself as compared to metal, I think. Also, doctors have a hard time removing the fragments because they won’t show up on an x-ray. ---
**Author:** ![Qis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Qis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/29 "2003-03-16T17:21:14Z")
Another Person wanting to know what is so bad about a wooden core bullet. Only wooden bullets i can find out about are ( what appear ( to my -useless- brain) to be) training bullets. A small story about a wood-core bullet being used to kills some swedish seargent in a training exercise. Apparently they couldn’t find the killer because teh bullet disintegrated, but no details on the damage inflicted . Do tell, i’m intregued. Qis ---
**Author:** ![legion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/838e76/32.png) [@legion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/30 "2003-03-16T17:35:40Z")
Anyone read the book "Black Hawk Down? In that, several of the rangers interviewed after the event complained of rounds going straight through people, leaving them still capable of firing back. It sometimes took as many as 6-10 rounds to drop some of those Somali dudes. According to the book, the Delta guys knew about this problem and so many of them used different weapons and ammo than the rangers. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/31 "2003-03-16T18:34:29Z")
Yeah - that’s what I was describing above about the SS-109. Too ballistically stable to go good damage. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/32 "2003-03-16T21:34:45Z")
IIRC most infantry types in Viet Nam din’t do much _aiming_ per se. Not at the headshot vs bodyshot level anyway. At least the Marines I knew would pretty much “fill the air” with lead, as it were. And call in air/artillary support. Snipering, now that’s a different story. Was there any appreciable small arms combat in Desert Storm? ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/33 "2003-03-17T01:45:13Z")
**Space Vampire,** I work in retail. Some days, getting shot in the base of the skull looks like an attractive option. **Shalmanese,** chopping them into chunks…is this the voice of experience? 😉 **SenorBeef** , pardon my ignorance, but a bullet can go through a person and they still have the ability to fire back? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/34 "2003-03-17T02:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KCSuze \* > \*\*SenorBeef, pardon my ignorance, but a bullet can go through a person and they still have the ability to fire back? \*\* Right. Bullets do most of their damage to a person due to the shock wave produced when the bullet impacts and travels through tissue. If a bullet travels completely through a person, it does not transfer all of its available kinetic energy to the target and may do less tissue damage. (The target may ultimately die of blood loss, but this is not necessarily immediate.) Small, high-velocity bullets are more likely to travel completely through a person than a slower larger-caliber bullet. A person hit by a bullet that completely penetrates them may take a while to bleed to death. During this time, they may be capable of shooting back. This is an argument in favor of larger caliber bullets that are more likely to “knock-down” a target; such bullets are said to have more “stopping power.” In a related note, there was a big-debate some years ago in the FBI between those in favor of 9-mm pistols versus 0.45 caliber pistols. (The latter are larger caliber.) The biggest argument in favor of the 9-mm were larger magazine capacity. The biggest argument in favor of the 0.45 were more knock-down capability. The critical incident was the [1986 Miami shootout](http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm) in which FBI agents armed primarily with 9-mm pistols were attacked by two robbery suspects. Both of the criminals were hit numerous times (one was hit _eleven_ times; the other six times), but they survived long enough to kill two FBI agents and wound five. Several of the bullets striking the suspects completely penetrated the suspects. Ultimately, I believe the FBI tried to compromise between the two camps by going with the 10-mm (0.40-caliber). ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/35 "2003-03-17T03:19:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robby \* > **Bullets do most of their damage to a person due to the shock wave produced when the bullet impacts and travels through tissue. If a bullet travels completely through a person, it does not transfer all of its available kinetic energy to the target and may do less tissue damage. (The target may ultimately die of blood loss, but this is not necessarily immediate.)** It is my understanding that “hydrostatic shock” and “energy dumping” are myths. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/36 "2003-03-17T03:32:16Z")
Have you ever been hit with a line drive baseball or accidently hammered your thumb or cut yourself badly? It fucking hurts!! Now I’m no expert, but I am willing to bet that any small piece of metal traveling a thousand feet per second when it hits you is going to: a) hurt b) damage you severely The ex-Marines story sounds a lot like the old wives tale I heard as a child where a bullet entering your ear would follow the path of least resistance out your mouth. Both sound unlikely. Also, simple physics dictates that a gunshot victim is not going to be “knocked down” any more than the shooter is knocked down when he fires his gun. So forget lauching people in the air with twin .45s like Antonio Banderes in Desperado. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/37 "2003-03-17T03:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\*It is my understanding that “hydrostatic shock” and “energy dumping” are myths. \*\* A Google search with search terms “bullet hydrostatic shock” brings up numerous websites that support **Crafter\_Man** ’s statement. It also brings up numerous websites that support the idea of hydrostatic shock being the primary mechanism of gunshot injury. None of the websites that I looked at appear to be what I would consider definitive or research-based. Most appear to be anecdotal or offered with no support. This website summarizes both sides, but also presents no definitive answer: > **[Hydrostatic shock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock)** > > Hydrostatic shock is the controversial concept that a penetrating projectile (such as a bullet) can produce a pressure wave that causes "remote neural damage", "subtle damage in neural tissues" and/or "rapid incapacitating effects" in living targets. It has also been suggested that pressure wave effects can cause indirect bone fractures at a distance from the projectile path, although it was later demonstrated that indirect bone fractures are caused by temporary cavity effects (strain pl Proponen... I have to confess that I’ve heard that this was the mechanism for years, and never thought to question it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > **Also, simple physics dictates that a gunshot victim is not going to be “knocked down” any more than the shooter is knocked down when he fires his gun.** Excellent point. ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/38 "2003-03-17T04:44:51Z")
**msmith537** , I don’t know if you were addressing me or robby, and if you weren’t talking to me, please disregard my babbling. > [@](#): > > Have you ever been hit with a line drive baseball or accidently hammered your thumb or cut yourself badly? Nope. Worst injury I’ve ever had was a sprained ankle. > [@](#): > > Also, simple physics dictates that a gunshot victim is not going to be “knocked down” any more than the shooter is knocked down when he fires his gun. So forget lauching people in the air with twin .45s like Antonio Banderes in Desperado. Well, to be truthful, I don’t have a whole lot of experience with guns and the physics thereof. I’ve never even seen one up close. That’s why I asked the question, because I don’t really have any idea about that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![lorinada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5e925/32.png) [@lorinada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorinada)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/39 "2003-03-17T05:29:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*anything that goes through the brain that’s the size of a bullet is going to kill except in extremely rare cases, where the guy is turned into a vegetable. \*\* Huh? [http://www.suicidemethods.net/text/content2.htm](http://www.suicidemethods.net/text/content2.htm) And an anecdote - my son’s friend was just discharged from inpatient rehab. He shot himself, the bullet went clear through from one ear to the other, and although he is certainly not well, he is far from a vegetable. Rare, maybe, but _extremely_ rare, and the outcomes always being a persistive vegetative state, are overstating it a little, I think. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503/40 "2003-03-17T06:32:51Z")
I said this regarding hydrostatic shock in an earlier thread: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Regarding hydrostatic shock, a few months ago I read a rather lengthy article by a respected ballistician - the name escapes me at the moment - who conducted various experiments and studied data to example the idea of hydrostatic shock. He very reasonably concluded that while the shock of a bullet entering the system did cause compression waves to run through the body, organs, muscles, and tissue weren’t damaged by being displaced for very short periods of time. He basically said that bullets kill the same way that swords do when used as a stabbing weapon: you either hit something critical like the spine or the heart, or you cause something to bleed to death. The temporary compression of tissue described by ‘hydrostatic shock’ doesn’t do any real damage to the body. \*\* I still can’t think of the guy’s name, unfortunately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shot-survival-rate/161503.md?page=3)