# Gun shows with Thompson submachine guns and silenced weapons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 19, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155 "2004-06-19T03:23:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/1 "2004-06-19T03:23:48Z")
Huh? I thought these weapons were illegal to possess, unless purchased before some cutoff date in the mid-1970s or if you have a hard-to-get federal license. Let me confess this was my first gun show (actually, a country flea market), where I spied this old dude selling dozens of weapons piled all over a table, most of which looked like they had been liften from an Ahnold action flick. Among his collection: a G3 automatic rifle (Belgian?), two Thompson submachine guns (with classic rotary magazines), many AK-47s and seemingly dime-a-dozen M-16s, and a stack of handguns, some of which sported what looked like silencers, not flash suppressors. He was selling them to whoever ponied up the cash. (Don’t know about licenses, but he seemed pretty casual and whispered a lot.) IIRC, he wanted about $18K for the Thompson and considerably less for the silenced arms. Spooky. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/2 "2004-06-19T03:33:30Z")
None of those weapons were automatic. All are perfectly legal to posess in a single shot only configuration. Otherwise the Feds would be on him like ugly on ape. The phrase “under the jail” comes to mind. As for the flash suppressors/silencers, AFAIK they aren’t technically banned outright on handguns. I believe that you can buy a H&K MK-23 w/silencer and threaded barrel packaged. But you can buy as many AK-47’s and M-16’s as you want for around $1000 a pop. They are manufactured, single-shot only, for the consumer market. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/3 "2004-06-19T03:40:06Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Huh? > I thought these weapons were illegal to possess, unless purchased before some cutoff date in the mid-1970s or if you have a hard-to-get federal license. Nope. It’s legal under federal law and the laws of many (not all) states to own these. There is paper work to fill out on both the federal and state levels. The deal with fully auto weapons is, it had to be manufactured before 1986. But can be bought and re-sold indefinately. I’m talking about civillian ownership. Law enforcement/military ownership is diffeerent. [http://www.vtgunsmiths.com/arms/caniown.html](http://www.vtgunsmiths.com/arms/caniown.html) None of this, of course, means that the guy you talked to was on the up & up. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/4 "2004-06-19T03:46:21Z")
Machine guns and silencers are legal to buy, sell, and possess. They are covered under the National Firearms Act of 1934. In a nutshell, you file the appropriate paperwork and pay a $200 tax. Machine guns not lawfully registered and possessed before May 19, 1986 may not be transferred. [http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m](http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/5 "2004-06-19T03:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the flash suppressors/silencers, AFAIK they aren’t technically banned outright on handguns. Silencers are treated the same way as machine guns. You need a special license to own one, in addition to being a resident of a state that allows them. I think that in Washington (state) silencers are permissable iin compliance with Federal law, but automatic firearms are not. California bans both (and also several types of semi-automatics). ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/6 "2004-06-19T03:51:36Z")
Just to add. It’s 1986 for domestic stuff. But the cooler foreighn stuff, had to have been imported before 1969. So a lot of the cool stuff is either really expensive, or impossible for civilians to own. But classic Thompsons and M-16s (all domestic, pleanty produced before 1986) are easy to get. M16s or M4s are going for like 5 grand or so. There is paperwork involved, but what you get from the ATF is a tax stamp. Not a federal license. There are federal licenses to SELL machine guns. Not possess them. Though, a Class III license to sell allows you to possess the really cool stuff. Like HK G-36, Glock 18, UMPs, 21Es… man, I miss my old job. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/7 "2004-06-19T04:09:46Z")
How many of them worked? If they don’t work, they’re novelty items. Granted they’re novelty items that don’t function as fully automatic submachineguns because they’ve been broken in a trivially repairable way… but they aren’t fully automatic submachineguns at the gun show, so they don’t have to be controlled that way. If you were to, say, buy one of these and take five minutes to fix it, well, that’s all you. It’s similar to the case with an AR-15 being a completely legal semi-automatic rifle modeled on the M-16. It’s also completely legal to sell upper-reciever parts from an M-16… some people might legally have a broken M-16 and wish to repair it, right? Now, suppose you buy and AR-15 and one of these M-16 repair kits… and repair your AR-15? Unless you’re being a nussiance, or seem to be breaking your AR-15s a lot, the local arm of the BATF will probably look the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/8 "2004-06-19T04:32:16Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > How many of them worked? > > If they don’t work, they’re novelty items. Granted they’re novelty items that don’t function as fully automatic submachineguns because they’ve been broken in a trivially repairable way… but they aren’t fully automatic submachineguns at the gun show, so they don’t have to be controlled that way. If you were to, say, buy one of these and take five minutes to fix it, well, that’s all you. No, there are strict guidelines for rendering an NFA firearm inoperable. It usually involves fusion welding the chamber closed and the barrel to the frame. A broken machine gun is still a machine gun. > [@](#): > > It’s similar to the case with an AR-15 being a completely legal semi-automatic rifle modeled on the M-16. It’s also completely legal to sell upper-reciever parts from an M-16… some people might legally have a broken M-16 and wish to repair it, right? Now, suppose you buy and AR-15 and one of these M-16 repair kits… and repair your AR-15? Unless you’re being a nussiance, or seem to be breaking your AR-15s a lot, the local arm of the BATF will probably look the other way. Even parts of machineguns are considered NFA weapons. I wouldn’t suggest testing your theory. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/9 "2004-06-19T05:18:36Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > It’s similar to the case with an AR-15 being a completely legal semi-automatic rifle modeled on the M-16. It’s also completely legal to sell upper-reciever parts from an M-16… some people might legally have a broken M-16 and wish to repair it, right? Now, suppose you buy and AR-15 and one of these M-16 repair kits… and repair your AR-15? Unless you’re being a nussiance, or seem to be breaking your AR-15s a lot, the local arm of the BATF will probably look the other way. I wouldn’t try pulling that one. I remember reading a copy of the Shotgun News back in the 80s and there were people offering Sten gun parts kits, as well as receivers. Enough to build a working SMG. They noted in their ads that posession of the kit may qualify as posession of an automatic weapon even if no attempt has been made to assemble it. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/10 "2004-06-19T08:24:43Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > NBut you can buy as many AK-47’s and M-16’s as you want for around $1000 a pop. They are manufactured, single-shot only, for the consumer market. Picking a pretty big nit here. Those weapons are not single shot, they are semi-automatic. That means they feed from a magazine of some sort and fire a shot each time you pull the trigger. True single shot weapons have no magazine, each round must be loaded by hand and are manually operated. Semi-automatic weapons that meet certain conditions are subject to some very restrictive laws though they don’t require federal registration as machine guns do. If they use detachable magazines the configuration of things such as pistol grips, folding stocks, bayonet lugs and other features is restricted depending on the date of manufacture. There is one set of rules for imported weapons post '89 and one set for domestic poist '94. A weapon is considered imported if a certain number of specified parts are imported. There is a cottage industry for US manufactured parts so that replacing a few results in a weapon that only has to meet the domestic rules. As an example the '94 crime bill prohibits further manufacture, sale and posession of the Colt AR-15 rifle. The problem is that Colt hasn’t designated a rifle AR-15 for many years so that part of the law is entirely moot. The law also defines “Semi-automatic assault weapon” (an oxymoron we can discuss in GD) by feature definitin. A pre-ban Colt sporter rifle might have a threaded barrel with a flash hider. The same rifle with a plain barrel muzzle with no threads or flash hider is not a semi-automatic assault weapon under the '94 law and is not restricted under federal law. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/11 "2004-06-19T11:49:35Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > He was selling them to whoever ponied up the cash. (Don’t know about licenses, but he seemed pretty casual and whispered a lot.) IIRC, he wanted about $18K for the Thompson and considerably less for the silenced arms. Spooky. 18K sounds about right for a ‘Curio and Relic’ Thompson in magnificent condition. Certain weapons are on the ATF ‘Curio and Relic’ list; A handful of those are full-auto. Reisen SMG, Thompson, the odd PPsh. That sort of stuff. If it is on the C&R list, all you need is a C&R FFL (sort of easy to get, depends on where you live, but involves lots of keeping track of what guns have.) And oodles of loot. Back in the day, they were dirt cheap. Then came the 1968 Gun Control Act. You could keep your full-auto Thompson or Sten, but the trick was, you had to pay a $200.00 tax, and register it. Most people poo-pooed the idea of paying a $200.00 tax for a $50.00 gun, so the number of legally ‘papered’ SMG’s that survived is exceedingly small and the price so damned high. There are still lots of old SMGs sitting around in attics, but they are not legal to own or transfer. Given the nubmer of ATF stooges at gunshows, and the price, I would bet that they were C&R SMGs. You can get ‘modern’ full-auto, depending on the state you live in, but the cost is still damned high. Several thousand for an AK, that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/12 "2004-06-19T11:52:25Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > The law also defines “Semi-automatic assault weapon” (an oxymoron we can discuss in GD) by feature definitin. A pre-ban Colt sporter rifle might have a threaded barrel with a flash hider. The same rifle with a plain barrel muzzle with no threads or flash hider is not a semi-automatic assault weapon under the '94 law and is not restricted under federal law. Good God, man, don’t forget the bayonet lug! Can’t you remember back before the AWB when criminals would fix bayonets and charge the police as a single line of sharp steel?!? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/13 "2004-06-19T13:55:58Z")
**Padeye** , the law about single shot only AR-15 is most likely true for **Ilsa\_Lund**. I’ve heard that’s the case in England and I’ve seen some rather bizarre lever action AR-15s. It’s probably the same for **Ilsa\_Lund** in New Zealand. **1010001010101001110100111000010** , the upper receiver for an M-16 and a pre-ban semi-auto AR-15 is identical. The only difference is the bolt assembly. While throwing that bolt in your AR-15 wont make it a full-auto, it will cause problems in function. So why bother? “Repairing” your M-16 is fine. All the parts are not very expensive. But the only part that’s going to make it full-auto is the sear. If you want to get a sear for your AR-15 to make it full-auto, that’s fine. But it’s going to cost you around $5000 or so and you’ll have to fill out some paperwork. Sound familiar? A registered sear, a tiny little piece of metal, _is_ a machine gun, and it gets transfered just the same. It has its own little serial number and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/14 "2004-06-19T14:26:16Z")
**Bear\_Nenno** : I don’t agree that using an M-16 bolt carrier in an AR-15 will result in problems. The difference between them is that the M-16 has a longer portion on the bottom of the carrier that is meant to trip the automatic sear. The AR-15 carrier has a shorter bit on the bottom, and is slotted so that it would not trip the sear if one were installed. My AR-15s used to have M-16 bolt carriers, and they functioned perfectly. (Those bolts have since been replaced with AR-15 bolts.) An AR-15 will function normally with all of the internals replaced with M-16 parts, as long as the selector is not switched to “auto”. If you were to switch to “auto”, you would not “technically” have a machine gun. However you might _legally_ have a machine gun, as you may get more than one round per trigger pull. I understand that this malfunction is sporadic, so aside from being illegal it is also unsafe. If you were to replace the internals with M-16 parts _except_ for the selector, you would only have a semi-automatic rifle that will not fire more than one round per trigger pull either on purpose or accidentally. But I understand that M-16 parts can no longer be sold, so the point is moot. As for the sear, it’s not an easy operation. The inside of an AR-15 is narrower than an M-16. In order to install an M-16 sear, you would have to mill out the inside of the lower receiver and drill a hole for the pin. An M-16 automatic sear will not fit in an AR-15 as the AR-15 is manufactured. You can use a “drop-in” auto sear in a modified AR-15; but these are regulated the same as machine guns. IIRC, they are prohibited from manufacture (either commercially or in your home workshop) since 1984. You might be able to obtain a pre-ban drop-in sear; but I don’t think it’s legal to convert an AR-15 type rifle because of the ban on manufacturing “new” machine guns. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/15 "2004-06-19T14:33:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I remember reading a copy of the Shotgun News back in the 80s and there were people offering Sten gun parts kits, as well as receivers. Enough to build a working SMG. I remember those ads. One company would sell everything except the receiver tube, and another company would sell uncut tubes with markings on them showing you where to cut. Having the parts was not at the time illegal; nor was having an uncut receiver tube. But the moment you cut the tube into a receiver (whether or not you had the rest of the parts) you were committing a felony. Same thing with the MAC-10. You could buy the sheet metal cut to shape for the receiver,;but if you drilled it and folded it, it became an illegal receiver. IIRC, the rest of the parts were easy to get but the barrels seemed hard to come by. Why would anyone want an illegal machine gun? It seems to me that they would only be useful in a total socio-economic collapse. In that case, you can _get_ machine guns (assuming you’re not killed in the process). Even then, ammunition would become scarce after a while. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/16 "2004-06-19T15:32:43Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > I wouldn’t try pulling that one. I remember reading a copy of the Shotgun News back in the 80s and there were people offering Sten gun parts kits, as well as receivers. Enough to build a working SMG. They noted in their ads that posession of the kit may qualify as posession of an automatic weapon even if no attempt has been made to assemble it. Those were probably uncut Sten tube, not recievers. It’s a very fine and technical line but a tube with the cuts marked on it is just a piece of steel but once it’s cut to be a Sten reciever it’s a machine gun and illegal if it’s unregistered. There is a legitimate market for dummy recievers. They can be assembled with real parts kits but are designed so it can’t be fired making it a non-weapon display piece. **Johnny** , a drop in auto sear doesn’t reauire any modifications to an AR-15 reciever. That’s the whole point of it being a drop in. The BATF requires you “marry” the DIAS to a specific reciever which is noted on the form four - the registration document. If you did any modification to use a DIAS that could constitute manufacturing a new machine gun. A colleague of mine had one, registered, in a Bushmaster XM-15 reciever. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/17 "2004-06-19T16:33:42Z")
> [@](#): > > **Johnny** , a drop in auto sear doesn’t reauire any modifications to an AR-15 reciever. That’s the whole point of it being a drop in. Yes. I thought I made that clear. Sorry if I didn’t. A DIAS is narrower than an M-16 auto sear so that it will fit in the receiver. If you want to use a military sear, you need to machine the inside of the receiver and drill a hole for the pin. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/18 "2004-06-19T17:20:09Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > You can use a “drop-in” auto sear in a modified AR-15; but these are regulated the same as machine guns. I read what you wrote. Modifying a reciever to accept any type of auto sear is in itself manufacturing a new machine gun. You can use them in pretty much any AR-15 except for most later model Colt’s (yes, the apostrophe is correct) rifles which have a block installed to prevent installation of any auto sear or use of an M-16 bolt carrier. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/19 "2004-06-20T02:59:39Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > **Padeye** , the law about single shot only AR-15 is most likely true for **Ilsa\_Lund**. I’ve heard that’s the case in England and I’ve seen some rather bizarre lever action AR-15s. It’s probably the same for **Ilsa\_Lund** in New Zealand. California, as well. You get weird crap like fixed magazine FAL’s and pump-action ARs from DPMS out there. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-shows-with-thompson-submachine-guns-and-silenced-weapons/251155/20 "2004-06-20T03:35:50Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Padeye, the law about single shot only AR-15 is most likely true for Ilsa\_Lund. I’ve heard that’s the case in England and I’ve seen some rather bizarre lever action AR-15s. It’s probably the same for Ilsa\_Lund in New Zealand. Oh, hell no. I’m American, I’m just on a long vacation. I was just mixing up “single shot” and “semi-automatic.” I was referring to the '89 and '94 regulation compliant weapons like the Bushmaster and Olympic Arms AR-15 clones that are semi-auto. Here in NZ, you can’t really get any “assault weapons” into the country. They are on the “Restricted” list and require insane amounts of red tape and expense to import. [http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/infosheet02.php](http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/infosheet02.php) Note the lack of any “assault” weapons on the approved list.