# Gun toting soccer mom dead. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115 "2009-10-08T22:12:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/401 "2009-10-15T06:47:56Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Let me ask you, if there was an off-duty cop who was carrying his pistol at his kid’s soccer game, would you feel the same way? Is that cop “unhinged?” Or does his training as a police officer give him the right to carry that pistol that an ordinary citizen doesn’t have, in your mind - even if the cop in question is a lazy slob who practices with his sidearm at the range twice a year, and the ordinary citizen is a USMC pistol marksmanship champion? No. Probably not. Yes it does, especially according to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/402 "2009-10-15T11:15:44Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > What sort of violent person imagines that disagreeing with someone is grounds to kill them? It’s so odd that the gun nuts call the gun owners scary, when it’s always the gun nuts that talk about shooting someone over a parking space or dueling someone in the street for an imagined insult. > > Is the reason gun nuts generally don’t own guns because they consider themselves likely to do these sorts of things? Consider this very thread. There’s been one persron who threatened violence because he got upset over a message board post. Guess which side of the argument he was on. Interestingly, he’s from St. Louis. That’s where I had someone point a gun at me over a traffic lane problem. Yeah, you’re right though. In fact I don’t carry a spare tire around with me because I’m afraid I might flip out and kill someone with it. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/403 "2009-10-15T11:19:08Z")
I don’t particularly care about the gun control debate but I’m surprised so many people are making fun of her for carrying a gun to a soccer game by pretending that a crazed gunman would never, ever strike there. She may or may not be a gun nut, or she should have been more discreet, but this particular harped upon point seems pretty stupid. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/404 "2009-10-15T12:19:44Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > To my fellow 2A supporters: Please leave this thread and don’t come back. It was an exercise in trollery from the first post. All the usual chorus members are here from the other side, saying nothing new, and as insulting as ever. They aren’t going to change their minds any more than we will change ours. Further, our side is winning in the legal and political arena, and has been winning for a while now. This bunch constitutes nothing but a loud minority of the willfully ignorant. > Go shooting. Go for a walk. Take a nap. Go to one of the other fora. Anything else is a better use of your time and energy than this. I support the 2nd, and the right to own guns, but it’s precisely this imtemperance that makes non-gun owners cringe. As I’ve said upthread, the image of gun ownership needs to de-Cheney-ize and quit being so hostile. The reason people “aren’t going to change their minds” is because a lot of gun owners take an extremely menacing, but laughable stance (like Yosemite Sam) that gives gentlefolk the creeps. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/405 "2009-10-15T12:49:15Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Now, you might say “hey, that’s pretty fucking stupid. In fact, it’s downright insane. The odds that you’ll ever need to blow a bunch of renegade cyborgs out of the downtown skyline in late afternoon rush hour are nearly zero, especially in comparison to the odds that you’ll blow the fucking bejesus out of a school bus for cutting you off twice in a row, because you’re exactly the kind of paranoid and unstable whackjob to create exactly that kind of mayhem, as evidenced by the fact _that you’re carrying high powered fucking weapons around with you all the fucking time_, you demented, dangerous fuck.” > > And really, that would be a pretty good point. Two points: 1. Gun ownership and having a firearm accessible to me when I choose to are not qualities that make me a paranoid whackjob or any more dangerous. It’s certainly possible ( **Hentor** ’s cites suggest that it is) that gun ownership in general attracts people more likely to use firearms irresponsibly, but it’s equally likely ( **Una** ’s cites suggest that it is) that those of us with enhanced firearms licensing (such as a CCW) are less likely to be in the cohort of “perpetrators of illegal or accidental gun violence” by a fairly significant margin. (this being one of many reasons why I support enhanced licensing and photo ids and registration of all firearms, same as cars and driver’s licenses–both are tools that carry a significant risk of being deadly if misused (not even going to debate that guns are a tool primarily designed to put large holes in things on an ad-hoc basis, even if I personally use mine for target shooting)) Furthermore, I’m not sure that I’d agree that someone who is using open carry as a political statement is statistically more or less likely to be a whackjob. But if you want to think I, as a concealed-carry permit holder, am more likely to be a “demented, dangerous fuck” against the evidence, that’s on you and not me, which is why… 2. If I am carrying a firearm, you won’t know unless I want you to know, I’m legally/ethically obligated to tell you outright, or you’re in a position where I’m willing/legally obligated to let you frisk me. Because I _personally_ don’t think the fight for open carry and cultural normalization of carried weapons is worth scaring a bunch of people in an context involving children just yet–that’s needlessly provocative compared to making the same political statement in a primarily adult-populated and more general-access area, IMHO. I’d leave it in the car when entering a private residence if the owner felt the way you do about gun owners–although if they had so little respect for me I’d find it hard to be friends with such a person–but that’s not the same as a public park, and I wouldn’t bother there. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/406 "2009-10-15T13:02:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > … but it’s equally likely ( **Una** ’s cites suggest that it is) that those of us with enhanced firearms licensing (such as a CCW) are less likely to be in the cohort of “perpetrators of illegal or accidental gun violence” by a fairly significant margin. I’m sorry, but which cites were those? If **Una Persson** offered any cites to that effect, I missed them, and I would really appreciate the opportunity to take a look. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/407 "2009-10-15T13:08:47Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m sorry, but which cites were those? If **Una Persson** offered any cites to that effect, I missed them, and I would really appreciate the opportunity to take a look. I might have pre-coffee-brain-farted and conflated something Una said with something else I was thinking. I’ll dig up the cite in question and that’ll be that. Gimmie a few. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/408 "2009-10-15T13:13:24Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > She was not killed **by** a gun. She was killed by her husband. He used a gun. People in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not killed by nuclear weapons. They were killed by Harry S. Truman. He used nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/409 "2009-10-15T13:20:47Z")
I note this with interest, but also with full recognition that these are just two anecdotes, about the two high profile incidents we’ve had here in Pittsburgh recently. Apparently, both the man who went in and killed three women and wounded nine in a suburban fitness center, and the man who killed thre police officers and wounded two others in an ambush were both concealed carry permit holders. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/410 "2009-10-15T13:31:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m sorry, but which cites were those? If **Una Persson** offered any cites to that effect, I missed them, and I would really appreciate the opportunity to take a look. My cites I mentioned earlier were in my aside where I commented that I had done the legwork to help **Cecil** - on a handgun-related column which ran about a year ago. I was not able to find many studies which focused on CCW holders, so what I did was sort through the published statistics of CCW holder license revocations for about 20 States, and further I contacted the State Attorney General’s offices of about…maybe 10 more States, I cannot recall. I then compared the statistics on the number of felonies committed by CCW holders to the number of felonies committed by the populace at large, and found that the raw odds ratio seemed to range from about 0.04 to 0.38. Most States were around 0.1; Florida stood out as a State which had the poorest ratio, something which I attributed to Florida having a less stringent requirement for CCW licenses. However, Vermont and Alaska have even looser criteria for CCW (in fact, in Vermont there is no license, every person not prohibited by Federal Law can concealed carry) but due to lack of data I could not compare them with Florida. Texas was 0.19, FTR. Oklahoma and Kansas had very low revocation rates; the Kansas program was new at the time and therefore I discarded that as an outlier, however Oklahoma’s plan had been in force more than 10 years (and had a revocation rate of 0.0015 IIRC) so I kept it. I didn’t do any peer-reviewed paper or anything on it, but I did manage after some discussion and joint fact-checking to convince **Cecil** to say: > [@](#): > > Stats do suggest that concealed-carry permit holders are a particularly law-abiding bunch. > **[We know how many people are killed by guns. How many are saved?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343884/we-know-how-many-people-are-killed-by-guns-how-many-are-saved)** ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/411 "2009-10-15T13:31:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Apparently, both the man who went in and killed three women and wounded nine in a suburban fitness center, and the man who killed thre police officers and wounded two others in an ambush were both concealed carry permit holders. In the former case, that tragedy could’ve easily been prevented if every other member of the gym had been packing a loaded handgun in his or her jock, thong, headband, and/or leg warmers. (Or so I expect to hear.) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/412 "2009-10-15T14:01:12Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > My cites I mentioned earlier were in my aside where I commented that I had done the legwork to help **Cecil** - on a handgun-related column which ran about a year ago. I was not able to find many studies which focused on CCW holders, so what I did was sort through the published statistics of CCW holder license revocations for about 20 States, and further I contacted the State Attorney General’s offices of about…maybe 10 more States, I cannot recall. I then compared the statistics on the number of felonies committed by CCW holders to the number of felonies committed by the populace at large, and found that the raw odds ratio seemed to range from about 0.04 to 0.38. Most States were around 0.1; Florida stood out as a State which had the poorest ratio, something which I attributed to Florida having a less stringent requirement for CCW licenses. However, Vermont and Alaska have even looser criteria for CCW (in fact, in Vermont there is no license, every person not prohibited by Federal Law can concealed carry) but due to lack of data I could not compare them with Florida. Texas was 0.19, FTR. Oklahoma and Kansas had very low revocation rates; the Kansas program was new at the time and therefore I discarded that as an outlier, however Oklahoma’s plan had been in force more than 10 years (and had a revocation rate of 0.0015 IIRC) so I kept it. > > I didn’t do any peer-reviewed paper or anything on it, but I did manage after some discussion and joint fact-checking to convince **Cecil** to say: > > [We know how many people are killed by guns. How many are saved? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2769/we-know-how-many-people-die-annually-from-gunfire-how-many-are-saved-by-defensive-firearms-use) I’m surprised that you were able to find good data on felonies committed by those with concealed carry permits. Although I haven’t really searched hard, it appeared that it wasn’t easy to find data on concealed carry permits alone, never mind crime statistics associated with them. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/413 "2009-10-15T14:06:38Z")
Okay, so the primary raw sources of data are thin on the ground, but here’s what I have. Of registered conceal carry permits issued in Florida since 1987 (of which there are somewhat more than 1.6 million), only 0.28% (4,503) have been revoked without being reinstated for any reason, and only 0.01% (167) permits have been revoked because the owner committed a crime with a firearm. (Almost all of the remaining revocations were due to "committed (non-firearm-related) crime after licensing). Data for other states appears to be primarily available in the form of rates rather than a historical overview. Tennessee has a pretty comprehensive set of statistics for 2008, during which 62,185 permits were issued or renewed (since renewals are in the total, I’m making the potentially incorrect assumption that this number pretty closely represents the number of ACTIVE concealed carry permit holders) and a total of 607 (0.97%) were revoked or suspended. Of those revocations/supensions, all of the 263 (0.42%) revocations were for a felony conviction, and of the rest, 247 (0.40%) were administrative or for misdemeanor convictions (the large majority were required on a presumptive basis due to a possible order for protection being considered) and 97 (0.16%) were suspended but not revoked for a felony conviction. For comparison, the US population was estimated at 293,655,404 in 2004, and the number of people arrested for felonies in the US during 2004 was 1,145,438, meaning that about 0.4% of the total population was arrested for felony crimes that year. This number compares pretty adequately with the total rate of convictions of concealed carry permit holders (0.28% and 0.58%, leaving out the administrative/misdemeanor convictions from Tennessee’s numbers), certainly within the margin of error of this admittedly non-rigorous survey. I’d be really interested in seeing more data like Florida’s on the total number of permits issued vs. revoked-for-criminal-cause, but I’m having a hard time finding any. Florida statistics - [Florida Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services](http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html) Tennessee statistics - [http://tn.gov/safety/stats/DL\_Handgun/Handgun/HandgunReport2008Full.pdf](http://tn.gov/safety/stats/DL_Handgun/Handgun/HandgunReport2008Full.pdf) Estimated population in 2004 - [U.S. Population by State, 1790 to 2015](http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004986.html) Felony Convictions in 2004 - [Home | Bureau of Justice Statistics](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fssc04.pdf) On preview–I wasn’t crazy. Thanks, **Una**. Glad I’m not the only one who found statistics hard to come by. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/414 "2009-10-15T14:14:11Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You clearly think, then, that _anyone_ who carries a weapon is mentally unhinged. > > If someone is a regular carrier of a firearm, concealed or otherwise, he or she will carry it everywhere. There’s nothing about a “suburban toddler soccer game” that somehow invalidates that person’s decision to keep themselves armed at all times. For someone who carries a pistol, that pistol is part of their daily routine of items carried or worn on the body, just like a wallet, a watch or a medallion of St. Christopher. Someone who believes in the concept of carrying a firearm believes that it might be needed at any time; that includes a kid’s soccer game. Let me ask you, if there was an off-duty cop who was carrying his pistol at his kid’s soccer game, would you feel the same way? Is that cop “unhinged?” Or does his training as a police officer give him the right to carry that pistol that an ordinary citizen doesn’t have, in your mind - even if the cop in question is a lazy slob who practices with his sidearm at the range twice a year, and the ordinary citizen is a USMC pistol marksmanship champion? > > See where I’m going with this? > > A gun, as carried, is an accessory. That accessory goes everywhere with you. This concept is not new at all; it’s only in recent years that guns or weapons of any kind have been so demonized and so vilified that everyone is socially conditioned to piss his pants at the sight of one. Have a look at any painting of nobles from the 16th or 17th century, for instance. Guys standing around watching a tennis game will have swords at their sides. Men congregating at the court of Queen Elizabeth will have swords at their sides. Any respectable man during the time of Shakespeare, Tycho, Michelangelo, Galileo, or Cervantes would have a sword at his side. Are all of the men in [this painting](http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Eliza21carried.jpg) “unhinged?” Is [this man](http://openesf.net/projects/esf-activists-news-network/project-home/shakespear_william.0.jpg) “unhinged?” Really, there is only one statistic that is pertinent to this Soccer Mom case, and to all cases of death by gun, regardless of the circumstances. The problem is, I’m not sure if the data exists, although it would be supremely easy to collect and determine. The statistic that I’m interested in, correlated to murder by gun, suicide by gun, assault or defense with a gun, etcetera, ectcetera. is current or prior military, law enforcement, or any other paramilitary occupation/association. Indoctrination of the gun as a weapon specifically for homicide, careless familiarity with guns, and gun fetishism all lead to easy killers with guns…I would be willing to bet that the majority of gun deaths, regardless of circumstance, are caused by people with current or prior military or paramilitary associations. Considering the circumstances, I would probably distrust the Marine sharpshooter the least in a public situation over an average schlub, or an off duty Police Officer, considering the indoctrination he went through. Well, I know for a fact that even in the wild west and in those “olden tymes” gun/weapon control was practiced quite commonly, you have it backwards. Often times, it was required to turn your pistols into the sheriff of certain old west boom towns, and in many places in “olden tymes” there were circumstances when bladed weapons were disarmed for reasons of etiquette, sacred space, or parlance. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/415 "2009-10-15T14:25:28Z")
In those paintings you are confusing regalia and ceremony with the common. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/416 "2009-10-15T14:27:57Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I don’t particularly care about the gun control debate but I’m surprised so many people are making fun of her for carrying a gun to a soccer game by pretending that a crazed gunman would never, ever strike there. She may or may not be a gun nut, or she should have been more discreet, but this particular harped upon point seems pretty stupid. I don’t think anyone’s claimed that a crazed gunman would never, ever strike at a soccer game. What I will claim is that if a person brings a gun to a soccer game, even with the best of intentions, it is my belief that they are much more likely to commit suicide or homicide at the soccer game than they are to take down a crazed gunman. All three are incredibly remote, of course, but my claim is that bringing a gun into an environment to make it safer is usually wrong (easy to think of exceptions being in a bear’s cave, being directly behind a bank robber as he announces his intentions…) **Shodan** - I’m not ignoring your post. I agree that I shouldn’t make the claim that most gun homicides and suicides are committed by people without criminal records. It’s a tough cite to look for, and I haven’t tried yet. I’ll amend it to ‘people who own guns are more likely to be shot with that gun than with any other.’ I’ll look for more info, though. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/417 "2009-10-15T14:39:23Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Indoctrination of the gun as a weapon specifically for homicide, careless familiarity with guns, and gun fetishism all lead to easy killers with guns…I would be willing to bet that the majority of gun deaths, regardless of circumstance, are caused by people with current or prior military or paramilitary associations. I don’t think that military training lead to “careless familiarity with guns.” It leads to _careful_ familiarity with guns. Someone who was trained in the military is far more likely to practice good firearms safety - something that prevents accidental firearm deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/418 "2009-10-15T14:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > But if you want to think I, as a concealed-carry permit holder, am more likely to be a “demented, dangerous fuck” against the evidence, that’s on you and not me, which is why… It isn’t that you are more likely to be crazy. Rather that if you happen to be crazy, the fact you have a gun on you makes you significantly more dangerous to me and my companions. I’m glad that many of you seem to have the super power to tell who a responsible gun owner is by the glip of their chin, but I have no such ability. Thus, I will remain content to be scared of people with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/419 "2009-10-15T15:11:12Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > It isn’t that you are more likely to be crazy. Rather that if you happen to be crazy, the fact you have a gun on you makes you significantly more dangerous to me and my companions. I’m glad that many of you seem to have the super power to tell who a responsible gun owner is by the glip of their chin, but I have no such ability. Thus, I will remain content to be scared of people with guns. Considering the data I posted above shows that concealed carry permit holders tend to commit felonies at a statistically similar rate to the general population, I fail to understand why me and my (sometimes) visible, well-maintained, legally-carried gun are scarier than everyone else who may or may not be armed and you’d never know until they drew and started firing. I’ll be the well-dressed clean-cut guy who’s happily willing to talk about it and discuss my reasons for carrying as well as my training and permits. Come to think of it, if someone is open carrying for political reasons they should not only be willing to politely and calmly discuss it but they should wear a sign/badge to that effect for more effective advocacy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/420 "2009-10-15T15:34:50Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > What sort of violent person imagines that disagreeing with someone is grounds to kill them? It’s so odd that the gun nuts call the gun owners scary, when it’s always the gun nuts that talk about shooting someone over a parking space or dueling someone in the street for an imagined insult. > > Is the reason gun nuts generally don’t own guns because they consider themselves likely to do these sorts of things? Well, it happens with some frequency. Disagreement + Gun = dead guy. It’s not something that occurs only in my violent imagination. People HAVE been shot over a parking space. Guns HAVE been fired in the street over an insult. You say I am imagining these things, as if they have never happened; they are imaginary. They are not. I do differentiate between guns as tools (shotguns, rifles for hunting, etc, and handguns that are specifically designed to kill other human beings. And yes, handguns are occasionally used to kill others that the gun owner disagrees with. Sorry you don’t like it, but it is factual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115.md?page=22)