# Gun toting soccer mom dead. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115 "2009-10-08T22:12:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/521 "2009-10-17T04:02:34Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > If you think it means “I would like to repeatedly punch you ( **devilsknew** ) in the face until all your teeth are knocked out, in order to pound some common civility into you, and to show you that I don’t need a firearm to deal with mouthy little pricks like you,” then yes, that is what I meant in my post to **devilsknew.**. If you think it means something else, well, that’s on you; please communicate to me what you thought it meant. Use small words. > > If I could have magically reached through my computer screen, down through all the internet connections, and out of **devilsknew’s** monitor, I would’ve already popped him in the snot box with my fist. Sadly, the laws of physics being what they are, that option is unavailable to me, and my knuckles are intact. I get that you are trying to explain yourself. Nevertheless, revisiting the scene of the crime is a bad idea here. It looks like you are repeating your threat or issuing a new one. So here’s what we’re going to do: 1. **ExTank** : Please drop the issue in this thread. 2. Anybody who wants to take **ExTank** to task for his previous threats in this thread, Pit him: start a new thread about it. In that new thread, he’ll be able to explain what he meant or did not mean, and offer whatever defenses or justifications he has. He will not be permitted to issue new threats. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/522 "2009-10-17T04:46:14Z")
Paramilitary/Military Men, would you rather hang up your guns when you come home and feel safe doing that, or do you want to always live with that paranoia of the unknown, not knowing whether the next person is an armed hostile or armed friend (concealed or open) in your own goddamn, supposedly fucking, civilized country? If not, what are you fighting for? The use of weapons should be their ultimate obliteration, their passing need, their obsolescence… not their proliferation. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/523 "2009-10-17T04:55:26Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Paramilitary/Military Men, would you rather hang up your guns when you come home and feel safe doing that, or do you want to always live with that paranoia of the unknown, not knowing whether the next person is an armed hostile or armed friend (concealed or open) in your own goddamn, supposedly fucking, civilized country? If not, what are you fighting for? > > The use of weapons should be their ultimate obliteration, their passing need, their obsolescence… not their proliferation. After all of these pages of nonsense from everybody involved, this is what it comes down to? An appeal to emotion? I’m fighting to defend the Constitution. That’s the oath we take. The right to keep and bear arms is in the Constitution. That makes it among the rights I am defending, and among the rights that I exercise. As far as “…do you want to always live with that paranoia of the unknown, not knowing whether the next person is an armed hostile or armed friend (concealed or open) in your own goddamn, supposedly fucking, civilized country?” goes, I’ll leave the worrying to you. In spite of your impassioned plea here, I’m sure you don’t lose any sleep over it. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/524 "2009-10-17T05:22:58Z")
I lose sleep sleeping thinking of my countrymen that die each day for no reason. The ones who were put in the situation by people that I didn’t elect, or who were betrayed by people I did elect. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/525 "2009-10-17T06:34:40Z")
There’s a reason that the pledge ends, “With liberty and justice for **all**.” I haven’t felt much liberty in about 10 years, don’t see a lot of justice in this thread. Partisanship and special interest however, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/526 "2009-10-17T14:14:31Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > I get that you are trying to explain yourself. Nevertheless, revisiting the scene of the crime is a bad idea here. It looks like you are repeating your threat or issuing a new one. So here’s what we’re going to do: > > 1. **ExTank** : Please drop the issue in this thread. > > 2. Anybody who wants to take **ExTank** to task for his previous threats in this thread, Pit him: start a new thread about it. In that new thread, he’ll be able to explain what he meant or did not mean, and offer whatever defenses or justifications he has. He will not be permitted to issue new threats. > > **Gfactor** > Pit Moderator BTW, I don’t think that it gets mentioned enough, but the level of fairness, coolness, and professionalism with which you moderate the SDMB BBQ Pit is absolutely exemplary, and very consistent too. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/527 "2009-10-17T14:21:03Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > There’s a reason that the pledge ends, “With liberty and justice for **all**.” > > I haven’t felt much liberty in about 10 years, don’t see a lot of justice in this thread. Partisanship and special interest however, yes. Please give some real life examples of how your personal liberty has been restricted. Against my own good advice, I returned to this thread mainly to note that your recent contributions are emotionally incontinent blather, even by the low standard of the SDMB anti-gun cohort. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/528 "2009-10-17T14:50:01Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > BTW, I don’t think that it gets mentioned enough, but the level of fairness, coolness, and professionalism with which you moderate the SDMB BBQ Pit is absolutely exemplary, and very consistent too. Yeah, but you forgot his canny fashion sense and has he been working out lately? I could swear he’s lost weight… ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/529 "2009-10-17T15:35:49Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Paramilitary/Military Men, would you rather hang up your guns when you come home and feel safe doing that, or do you want to always live with that paranoia of the unknown, not knowing whether the next person is an armed hostile or armed friend (concealed or open) in your own goddamn, supposedly fucking, civilized country? That ship’s done sailed. I left the Army, from Ft. Hood, in the Fall of '91. One fine October day, my platoon sergeant and I went out to lunch, at the local Dennys. We ate lunch, and as we were leaving, there were hordes of cop cars, ambulances, and helicopters swarming towards the Luby’s, about a 1/2 mile up the road. We’d skipped Luby’s in favor of Dennys, but it was a toss-up as to which one we were going to have lunch at. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/530 "2009-10-17T15:48:50Z")
Luby’s is a good example of the problem of handguns being commonly available. Given the choice of (a) everyone being able to carry handguns resulting in shootouts, or (b) commonly available handguns (e.g. the shooter at Luby’s) combined with limited restrictions on where handguns can be carried (e.g. the patron at Luby’s not carrying her handgun) resulting in massacres, or © tight restrictions on possession of handguns making it far more difficult for a nut to get handguns in the first place, thanks, but I’ll go for tight restrictions every time. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/531 "2009-10-17T16:45:38Z")
Events like the Luby’s Massacre are so rare that neither side of this argument has much to gain by using them as examples. Those mass murders happen so seldom and so sudddenly that carrying a gun specifically to protect yourself in such a situation seems to be paranoia to the antis. Restricting and banning guns in order to prevent such events seems onerous, unfair, and knee-jerk emotionalism to the pro side, in light of the many millions of guns that are owned by many millions of good citizens and that are never used to harm others. Perhaps if the argument (I won’t dignify it as a debate) centered more around the common types of crime encountered by the citizens of the US there could be more light and less heat. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/532 "2009-10-17T17:50:09Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > And I’m pointing out that if you add up 5 relatively small numbers, you end up with another, slightly larger, relatively small number. Thanks for your comments and for keeping them rational, rather than simply insulting other posters, like others seem to do. Here is an area where I wish I could see more studies and numbers. I don’t agree that if we add up my 5 numbers, we get a relatively small number; I think it is a significant number. When I look south of the border and see a rate of homicides due to guns approximately [12 times higher in the US](http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cdic-mcc/19-1/d_e.html) Accidental deaths from firearms are 2.9 times higher. Suicides with firearms 2.3 times higher. Murders with handguns 15 times higher. (Murders without firearms are only 1.7 times higher) I ascribe these numbers to the relative ease of obtaining firearms in the United States. You may have other explanations, but I think mine is the most straightforward. When I look south, I see a society that is trying an experiment with > [@](#): > > Society as a whole will be worse off it we restrict a free person’s access to guns. , and it does not seem to be working. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/533 "2009-10-17T18:08:25Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Events like the Luby’s Massacre are so rare that neither side of this argument has much to gain by using them as examples. All the other situations where the pro-gun group claims to be safer are rare too. If I’m a criminal with a gun and mug you in an alley you aren’t going to have time to pull your gun, if I want to cajack you I’ll have my gun on you preventing you from drawing yours. I want something from your house? Fuck the home invasion, why would I do that? I’ll just go in when you’re not home and take what I want. Top item on my list: your gun. Really, how many people have you known who have defended themselves with a gun? It’s just not that common. I can see why you feel more secure but your next door neighbour who doesn’t own a gun can sleep just as peacefully at night. Guns are fun, guns are useful. They are not protecting millions of homeowners. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/534 "2009-10-17T18:21:57Z")
Forgot to add - I completely understand **1010011010** ’s "long term benefit to society argument. I don’t agree with it, but don’t have any valid reason why. It is perhaps the most powerful argument for freer access to firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/535 "2009-10-17T21:00:47Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > All the other situations where the pro-gun group claims to be safer are rare too. If I’m a criminal with a gun and mug you in an alley you aren’t going to have time to pull your gun, if I want to cajack you I’ll have my gun on you preventing you from drawing yours. I want something from your house? Fuck the home invasion, why would I do that? I’ll just go in when you’re not home and take what I want. Top item on my list: your gun. Really, how many people have you known who have defended themselves with a gun? It’s just not that common. I can see why you feel more secure but your next door neighbour who doesn’t own a gun can sleep just as peacefully at night. Guns are fun, guns are useful. They are not protecting millions of homeowners. See, you’re talking out of your ass here. Blogs have been cited in this thread that are concerned with successful use of firearms in self-defense. The NRA magazines have “The Armed Citizen” column every month , which collects newspaper accounts of same. I have personally defended myself several times with a gun; thankfully without having to shoot anybody. Not every criminal attack takes the form of an ambush, you see. However uncomfortable it may make you, it is a fact that everyday people use guns to protect themselves from criminals. If you just want to handwave that away, you are willfully ignoring the truth and there can be no meaningful discussion with you. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/536 "2009-10-17T21:41:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I have personally defended myself several times with a gun; thankfully without having to shoot anybody. Not every criminal attack takes the form of an ambush, you see. However uncomfortable it may make you, it is a fact that everyday people use guns to protect themselves from criminals. If you just want to handwave that away, you are willfully ignoring the truth and there can be no meaningful discussion with you. Would you mind describing what happened those times? This isn’t meant to be a challenge, I just don’t hear these kinds of stories very often, which is as you say a contributing factor to my overall perspective on the relative pros and cons of gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/537 "2009-10-18T15:34:07Z")
Briefly, as I am posting from an iPod: 1. Used a gun to gain exit from a car when hitching as a young man. The guy who picked me up was telling me his plans for me in some detail and had indicated I had no choice in the matter. He was a good bit bigger than me and relying on that to intimidate me, I guess. 2. Used a gun to chase off a fellow who attemted to mug me at an ATM. I heard him coming up on me and already had the gun in my hand in my coat pocket. 3. Used a gun to chase off a group of chemically- altered yoots in a roadrage incident. They were angry over a near collision which had been their drunk, swerving fault. They were in front of me and when we hit a construction zone, they stopped. I was blocked by them in front and other cars behind. They started to get out of their car and move on me, but the display of a handgun caused them\_after a little thought and discussion\_to reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/538 "2009-10-18T16:03:27Z")
It’s interesting that so many of the rest of us get by so well with them though. Maybe you just have bad luck. > [@Scumpup](#): > > The NRA magazines have “The Armed Citizen” column every month , which collects newspaper accounts of same. Sounds like the Penthouse Letters of the gun world. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/539 "2009-10-18T16:25:07Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > 1. Used a gun to chase off a group of chemically- altered yoots in a roadrage incident. They were angry over a near collision which had been their drunk, swerving fault. They were in front of me and when we hit a construction zone, they stopped. I was blocked by them in front and other cars behind. They started to get out of their car and move on me, but the display of a handgun caused them\_after a little thought and discussion\_to reconsider. It’s good that the only person with a gun was a responsible person. The situation I’m nervous about is when EVERYONE is armed. Then the yoots would have gone back to their car, retrieved their weapons, and showed you some respect. And possibly people in the cars behind would have come to your defense with their own weapons. Someone else mght have weighed in on the yoots side. An unpleasant scene ensues. I really wish that more emphasis was put on the first part of the 2nd : > [@](#): > > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, This makes sense to me, and speaks to the “long term” consequences of having nobody allowed to have access to guns. The key word is “regulated”. It seems that the writers of the 2nd did not have a problem with regulations. It would appear that they did not think guns should be freely available, willy-nilly both to reasonable people like **Scumpup** as well as to idiots like road raging “yoots” ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115/540 "2009-10-18T16:45:27Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This makes sense to me, and speaks to the “long term” consequences of having nobody allowed to have access to guns. The key word is “regulated”. It seems that the writers of the 2nd did not have a problem with regulations. It would appear that they did not think guns should be freely available, willy-nilly both to reasonable people like **Scumpup** as well as to idiots like road raging “yoots” [Have A Good Read.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1114/what-does-the-right-to-bear-arms-really-mean) I like this part in particular: > [@Cecil](#): > > But let’s get back to “well-regulated.” A number of serious scholars have disputed the idea that this phrase necessarily means “subject to a lot of regulations.” The historian Robert Shalhope, for example, makes a good case that for the framers it meant “duly constituted”–that is, subject to civilian authority. The framers, in other words, did not propose to have armed gangs of self-appointed militiamen roaming the streets. Some take Shalhope’s argument a step further and say that “well-regulated” applies only to the militia and does not constrain an individual’s right to keep and bear arms in any way. > > A more reasonable interpretation, however, is that if the government can regulate the militia it can regulate the individuals in it, provided it does so in a way that does not make a shambles of their basic Second Amendment rights. For that reason I think even if the amendment had been interpreted more in line with the framers’ intent, the regulatory landscape would not necessarily look a lot different from the way it does now. But it’s silly to think the framers would guarantee a right in one half of the Second Amendment only to allow the government to unguarantee it in the other half. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-toting-soccer-mom-dead/513115.md?page=28)