# Guns: A Public Health Approach **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685 "2004-07-05T20:00:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/21 "2004-07-07T12:44:05Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Erm, didn’t they do a pretty good job of reducing death by guns in Europe, specifically England? Sure nough. Then the baddies resorted to other means, not as convenient, just as deadly. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/22 "2004-07-07T14:29:02Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Citizens - even those with guns - aren’t SUPPOSED to fight crime. No, but they are supposed to defend themselves. I wouldn’t shoot someone to prevent crime. I would shoot someone to save my ass, or someone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/23 "2004-07-07T21:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hazel** said: > Attn Pro-Gun Rights People: Yes, the accidental gun deaths and injuries are quite rare. But every time one occurs, the anti crowd shouts it from the rooftops. Why oppose methods of cutting down on these accidents? Many of us work toward reducing firearms accidents, or what is better termed ‘negligent discharge’ because none of us want to see people die needlessly. What we object to are people who do not know the first thing about firearms attempting to legislate safety in ways that undermine the effectiveness of our tools of self defense, hunting, target shooting, and other recreation. > [@](#): > > These tragedies could be reduced if all of our kids were taught the basics about guns and gun safety. Do you know that one of the biggest proponents of age-appropriate gun safety education is actually the NRA? Eddie Eagle ring any bells? > [@](#): > > **Zagadka** said: > The police HATE it when citizens pull out guns and start shooting at each other to “prevent crime” - it only makes the situation more dangerous (and makes the use of deadly force more likely). Washington County Sheriff Larry Maggi and his deputies who handle the issuance of Pennsylvania Concealed Firearms Licenses in their offices flat out stated during the seminar when I received my license that they are _glad_ there are citizens who are armed, that the criminals know that any potential victim in Pennsylvania (over 21 years old) could be armed, and also took time and care to explain to the probably seven or so people in my group when it is and is not proper to draw your firearm and use it. In his words, and the words of the LA police during the Rodney King riots, and of more than one court, the police have no affirmative duty to defend a citizen. Self defense is the job of every ‘self’. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/24 "2004-07-07T22:19:04Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Citizens - even those with guns - aren’t SUPPOSED to fight crime. The police HATE it when citizens pull out guns and start shooting at each other to “prevent crime” - it only makes the situation more dangerous (and makes the use of deadly force more likely). Citizens should retain the right to defend their lives and their property when the situation arises. Unfortunately the police cannot be all places at all times to relying on them for protection seems rather foolish. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/25 "2004-07-07T22:28:19Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > No, but they are supposed to defend themselves. I wouldn’t shoot someone to prevent crime. I would shoot someone to save my ass, or someone else’s. Learn Judo. /doesn’t care ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/26 "2004-07-07T23:20:35Z")
> [@](#): > > It seems to me that the only thing the anti-gun crowd ever does is work to pass laws forbidding anyone from owning certain types of gun, and forbidding certain people from owning any guns at all. At the same time, all the pro-gun people do is fight to hang on to their right to bear arms. > > There are measures we could take to reduce gun-related deaths and injuries. Neither side is working to institute these measures, but both sides would benefit from doing so. (Not to mention the people who would benefit by not being killed or injuried.) > > Attn Anti-Gun People: Why are you against the pvt ownership of guns? Because people use guns (usually on purpose but sometimes accidently) to kill and injure other people. If you want to reduce the number of deaths and injuries, why not _work to reduce the number of deaths and injuries?_ An actual ban is a grail that has eluded you for decades – and wouldn’t eliminate deaths and injuires even if you got one. You can’t wave a magic wand and make all guns vanish. They’ll be a black market. Work for a ban if you insist, but why not, at the same time, work to reduce the deaths and injuries? You misrepresent the gun control side. Sure, the assault weapon ban is part of the position, but few are aiming for eliminating guns. Reread my post about where gun deaths occur and how to reduce them. Very few are preventable by the measures you propose. How about mandating secure storage? Preventing legislation that immunizes negligent gun sellers from law suits? Preventing unlicensed dealers from selling guns at gun shows? Preventing obvious Straw man purchases (purchase of dozens of weapons at a time)? Funding implementation of current laws and making it a priority? > [@](#): > > Then there are the cases where a very young child finds a gun and does not understand that it’s a real gun; thinks it’s a toy. Well, very young kids can be taught to recognise the poison symbol. They can be taught to call 911. Why can’t they be taught to tell the difference between a real gun and a toy? You know poison symbols don’t work well. keeping poisons Out of reach and locked up does. Education is well and good, but how effective is it? This is how well (from January 04 Pediatrics ) > [@](#): > > Results. Both programs were effective for teaching children to reproduce verbally the gun-safety message. The behavioral skills training program but not the Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program was effective for teaching children to perform gun-safety skills during a supervised role play, but the skills were not used when the children were assessed via real-life (in situ) assessments. > > Conclusions. Existing programs are insufficient for teaching gun-safety skills to children. Programs that use active learning strategies (modeling, rehearsal, and feedback) are more effective for teaching gun-safety skills as assessed by supervised role plays but still failed to teach the children to use the skills outside the context of the training session. The deaths are mainly caused by handguns in the hands of criminals. A public health perspective must focus on reducing that event with interventions that are cost effective in the broadest sense of cost. (which includes the cost of limits to the rights of legitimate gun owners) ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/27 "2004-07-07T23:30:33Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Learn Judo. I wasn’t asking you for advice. I already know how to defend myself. > [@](#): > > /doesn’t care I do. Very much so. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/28 "2004-07-07T23:32:31Z")
[QUOTE=Berkut] I wasn’t asking you for advice. I already know how to defend myself. Oh? How? ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/29 "2004-07-07T23:50:11Z")
You started to care again? Good. To answer your question, I will defend myself by applying just enough force (or lack thereof) to prevent death or bodily harm. To do what is needed to meet the threat, and no more. If I can run, I will. If I can’t run and I have to physically fight, I will. If I’m left with absolutely no other choice and have to use a firearm to eliminate a threat, I will. What I won’t do is stick my head in the sand and rely entirely on other people to show up and save me. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/30 "2004-07-07T23:56:44Z")
> [@](#): > > **DSeid** said: > How about mandating secure storage? Renders my firearm useless as a defensive tool. > [@](#): > > Preventing legislation that immunizes negligent gun sellers from law suits? Knife manufacturers are not liable for stabbings. Firearms manufacturers should not be held liable for the criminal acts of those who illegally purchase or steal their products long after they leave the warehouse. On what grounds exactly do you think these suits should be based? > [@](#): > > Preventing unlicensed dealers from selling guns at gun shows? All dealers at gun shows are licesned dealers. It’s not possible to get a booth at a gun show selling firearms unless you are an FFL holding dealer. Private citizen to private citizen sales are, for long guns, still legal without having to submit BATF 4473 or go through a NICS check, but that is not unique to gun shows, it is unique to a private citizen selling his or her own property to another private citizen. It is already illegal for a private citizen to sell a firearm to anyone who cannot legally possess one, and ‘I didn’t know’ is no defense. > [@](#): > > Preventing obvious Straw man purchases (purchase of dozens of weapons at a time)? Exactly how many does it take to make something an ‘obvious’ straw purchase? If I decide to buy a pair of matched Colt 1911-A pistols is that enough? What if I want three of them? One to shoot, one to customize, and one to keep in the collector cabinet? What kind of limit are you going to set there? > [@](#): > > Funding implementation of current laws and making it a priority? Because apparently although the Brady Campaign (formerly HCI) has touted that they were able to stop hundreds of thousands of firearms sales to known criminals because of NICS, not one single prosecution has ever occured despite it being a felony for a prohibited person to attempt to purchase a firearm _and_ felony perjury to lie on the BATF 4473, which someone would have to in order to fill it out and have a NICS check run if they were a prohibited person. The form itself states that placing false information upon it is perjury. Why has no one been prosecuted? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/31 "2004-07-07T23:59:07Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > You started to care again? Good. > > To answer your question, I will defend myself by applying just enough force (or lack thereof) to prevent death or bodily harm. To do what is needed to meet the threat, and no more. > > If I can run, I will. > If I can’t run and I have to physically fight, I will. > If I’m left with absolutely no other choice and have to use a firearm to eliminate a threat, I will. > > What I won’t do is stick my head in the sand and rely entirely on other people to show up and save me. But you aren’t concerned enough about your self defense to learn a martial art? Even though I see how step 2 is fighting. Do you happen to know why banks cooperate with robbers? Quick, off the top of your head, what %age of murders are done in the course of a robbery or other crime. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/32 "2004-07-08T00:21:35Z")
The vast majority of murders are done between rival gang members or competing drug dealers. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/33 "2004-07-08T00:27:17Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > The vast majority of murders are done between rival gang members or competing drug dealers. Meeep. The majority of murders are between people who know each other and somethign goes wrong, though gang murders and comes in a close second. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4954912&postcount=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4954912&postcount=5) ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/34 "2004-07-08T00:31:38Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > But you aren’t concerned enough about your self defense to learn a martial art? Even though I see how step 2 is fighting. Option 1 is running away, yet I don’t get up and run every day to prepare for it. If I took the time to learn every single skill that might save my life, I would have no time left to, well, live. As it is, I devote what time I have to learning what I consider to be the most effective form of self-defense. How effective will martial arts be against the worst threat I might encounter? I guess I will just have to settle for flailing my arms like a schoolgirl should I get in a fight. I’ll take that (and my firearms proficiency) over being Steven Segal when faced with a knife (or worse), though. > [@](#): > > Do you happen to know why banks cooperate with robbers? Probably because they seek to avoid a potentially hazardous confrontation, just like me. But since I’m not in the habit of defending banks, I don’t know for sure. > [@](#): > > Quick, off the top of your head, what %age of murders are done in the course of a robbery or other crime. I have no idea. I also have no idea when your birthday is, or when the next lunar eclipse is, or a thousand other things that have nothing at all to do with me defending myself. What point are you trying to make with this question? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/35 "2004-07-08T00:35:17Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > Option 1 is running away, yet I don’t get up and run every day to prepare for it. If I took the time to learn every single skill that might save my life, I would have no time left to, well, live. As it is, I devote what time I have to learning what I consider to be the most effective form of self-defense. How effective will martial arts be against the worst threat I might encounter? How many times have you used your gun to defend your life? > [@](#): > > I have no idea. I also have no idea when your birthday is, or when the next lunar eclipse is, or a thousand other things that have nothing at all to do with me defending myself. What point are you trying to make with this question? To see if you actually know anything about crime prevention, murder statistics, etc. You don’t, as I suspected. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/36 "2004-07-08T01:12:30Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > How many times have you used your gun to defend your life? Never, thank goodness, and I hope I never have to. I’ve also never used a fire extinguisher to put out my kitchen. I still have one and know how to use it, though. Never had an engine failure in an airplane, but I still train for it. Never wrecked my motorcycle, but I still wear a helmet. Never had my TV stolen, but I still lock my doors at night. You see, I use my head to assess risk and determine the best way to deal with it. I don’t rely entirely on other people to do that for me. > [@](#): > > To see if you actually know anything about crime prevention, murder statistics, etc. You don’t, as I suspected. Wow. Even assuming this actually has anything to do with my self defense (which it doesn’t)… You can determine the whole of someone’s knowledge of a subject with one question that you don’t want them to look up? Quick, off the top of your head, how many people were murdered by rolling pins in 2002? You don’t know? Well, you must know nothing about crime prevention, murder statistics, etc. Do you see how silly your argument is? Or do you still just not care? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/37 "2004-07-08T01:17:38Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > Never, thank goodness, and I hope I never have to. > > I’ve also never used a fire extinguisher to put out my kitchen. I still have one and know how to use it, though. > > Never had an engine failure in an airplane, but I still train for it. > Never wrecked my motorcycle, but I still wear a helmet. > Never had my TV stolen, but I still lock my doors at night. > > You see, I use my head to assess risk and determine the best way to deal with it. I don’t rely entirely on other people to do that for me. Yet you still refuse to learn a martial art. > [@](#): > > Quick, off the top of your head, how many people were murdered by rolling pins in 2002? 1. > [@](#): > > You don’t know? Well, you must know nothing about crime prevention, murder statistics, etc. I made an educated guess. The difference is that my question had to do wit hthe issue of firearms as protection or as murder devices. The statistics bear out that more people are killed by people they know than are killed during robberies, rapes, and burglaries combined. You still want everyone to have a gun? Watch the murder rate shoot through the roof? ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/38 "2004-07-08T01:54:44Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Yet you still refuse to learn a martial art. I’ve addressed this already in a previous post. To save you from scrolling up, I will post it again: > [@Berkut](#): > > _**If I took the time to learn every single skill that might save my life, I would have no time left to, well, live. As it is, I devote what time I have to learning what I consider to be the most effective form of self-defense. How effective will martial arts be against the worst threat I might encounter? I guess I will just have to settle for flailing my arms like a schoolgirl should I get in a fight. I’ll take that (and my firearms proficiency) over being Steven Segal when faced with a knife (or worse), though.**_ > [@zagadka](#): > > 1. I made an educated guess. I prefer accuracy over just an answer. You may feel differently. > [@Zagadka](#): > > The difference is that my question had to do wit hthe issue of firearms as protection or as murder devices. The statistics bear out that more people are killed by people they know than are killed during robberies, rapes, and burglaries combined. You still want everyone to have a gun? Watch the murder rate shoot through the roof? Where have I ever stated that I want everyone to have a gun? Since I can’t rely on someone else to protect me, what I want is to be able to defend myself with at least as much force as an individual might use against me. I am willing to accept responsibility for my use of that force. I am willing to use that force only as an absolute last resort. I am willing to take the time to practice and be proficient in the use of firearms. I am willing do what it takes to hold up my end of the deal. And I am. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/39 "2004-07-08T02:13:18Z")
BTW, I think this is getting away from the OP. I’ve talked more about my personal choices for self defense rather than what you were looking for, Hazel. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685/40 "2004-07-08T02:21:37Z")
> [@](#): > > **Zagadka** said: > The majority of murders are between people who know each other and somethign goes wrong, though gang murders and comes in a close second. People who know each other, such as rival gang members and those having disputes over illegal drugs. These are put into the books as ‘acquaintance’ crimes, which causes the statistic to paint a different picture than reality. > [@](#): > > How many times have you used your gun to defend your life? I know you were asking **Berkut** , but I’m going to answer. Once. A crackhead running from the police attempted to use my apartment as a hiding place. I warned him that any further steps through my door would result in his death, and he took off uninjured. He was later caught. > [@](#): > > The statistics bear out that more people are killed by people they know than are killed during robberies, rapes, and burglaries combined. And most of the time the reason they ‘know’ the other person is because they are involved in some **other criminal activity either together or in competition with each other** such as dealing drugs or gang activity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-a-public-health-approach/253685.md?page=3)