# Guns and the defense of liberty. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002 "2013-01-12T22:47:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/281 "2013-02-04T19:24:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Then how’s that different from a country just having an army? An army is made up of full-time professional soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/282 "2013-02-04T20:08:01Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > DOL, as an excuse for the private ownership of weaponry, is a myth. Are you arguing that it’s illegal or that it is physically impossible? I doubt anyone would disagree with the first. In fact, I’m pretty sure the Revolutionary War was illegal in the eyes of England. As for the second, again, there are examples (in recent history and even happening today) where small arms in the hands of civilians are being used (along with, admittedly, some heavier weapons) to overthrow tyrannical governments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/283 "2013-02-04T20:31:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… when asked if you’d favor “the American model” of “the Lebanese model” for your “one-state solution” you rather foolishly said you’d advocate “the Israeli model” and keep everything the same except for allowing Palestinians in the occupied territories to vote. > > You did realize that this would mean that Hamas and Hezbollah would not be allowed to put up candidates for the Knesset didn’t you? No, I did not; and of course that would not be an acceptable provision. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/284 "2013-02-04T20:32:52Z")
HurricaneDitka, To your first point - yes, it is illegal to overthrow, or even to oppose, the US government by force. So, the DOL argument supports an illegal act. No modern revolution has been based on wide spread private ownership of weapons. Generally weapons are provided by dissident units that defect from the government or by competing political/economic entities. The peasants in the Mexican Revolution had not previously hunted deer with machine guns and cannon. In my lifetime there have been examples of individuals using the armed DOL approach. During the dam building era and the construction of the Interstate Highway System there were individuals who refused to leave their property and defended it with privately owned weapons. None were successful. The DOL mythology is no more than a popular delusion. Crane ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/285 "2013-02-04T20:49:25Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > To your first point - yes, it is illegal to overthrow, or even to oppose, the US government by force. So, the DOL argument supports an illegal act. I think that is understood but I don’t see how it’s relevant to the conversation. > [@Crane](#): > > No modern revolution has been based on wide spread private ownership of weapons. Generally weapons are provided by dissident units that defect from the government or by competing political/economic entities. The peasants in the Mexican Revolution had not previously hunted deer with machine guns and cannon. I think it’s fair to say that revolutionaries generally need guns to succeed. Maybe the reason that revolutionaries in other countries need to have their guns smuggled in is precisely because they don’t own them in large numbers. As I understand it, America’s stockpile of weapons in private hands dwarfs any other country. I suppose that’s just one less step a group of American revolutionaries would have to worry about. > [@Crane](#): > > In my lifetime there have been examples of individuals using the armed DOL approach. During the dam building era and the construction of the Interstate Highway System there were individuals who refused to leave their property and defended it with privately owned weapons. None were successful. You really think a farmer opposing the interstate highway system is an example of “the armed DOL approach”? Maybe we’re thinking of different things. When you talk about the DOL and a hypothetical American revolution, I imagine something like the Civil War or what Lybia went through or what Syria is now going through, with lots and lots of regular citizens joining in, some fracturing of the military, etc. I don’t really count Farmer Joe with his side-by-side as an actual attempt at the armed DOL approach. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/286 "2013-02-04T21:08:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You really think a farmer opposing the interstate highway system is an example of “the armed DOL approach”? Maybe we’re thinking of different things. When you talk about the DOL and a hypothetical American revolution, I imagine something like the Civil War or what Lybia went through or what Syria is now going through, with lots and lots of regular citizens joining in, some fracturing of the military, etc. I don’t really count Farmer Joe with his side-by-side as an actual attempt at the armed DOL approach. I think the point is, neither the Libyan nor Syrian revolution could possibly have succeeded merely with the weapons of the populace; in the case of the rebels in both nations, they had heavily armed militias supplied by military defectors and foreign nations and organizations. If a rebel’s rifle had an impact on overthrowing a tyrannical government, it was a minor one at best. The interstate highway system is a notable example a group of civilians armed with civilian weapons, _and without military support from domestic or foreign military establishments_, stood against and “oppressive” government. Needless to say, the results weren’t comparable to Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/287 "2013-02-04T21:22:47Z")
Reyemile, Agreed - I couldn’t say it any better. Crane ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/288 "2013-02-04T23:06:46Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > I think the point is, neither the Libyan nor Syrian revolution could possibly have succeeded merely with the weapons of the populace; in the case of the rebels in both nations, they had heavily armed militias supplied by military defectors and foreign nations and organizations. If a rebel’s rifle had an impact on overthrowing a tyrannical government, it was a minor one at best. Point taken on the Libyans. They were clearly getting their asses kicked until we started up with the cruise missiles and air cover. As for the Syrians, foreign aid has been less direct and your above point is less clear. If the only effect the Turks (or whoever has been supplying them) have is to give them ammunition and the same sort of small arms that Americans already have in abundance, then we’re just positioned to bypass the step of going hat-in-hand to foreigners asking for small arms. And don’t forget that this revolution has been happening in Syria, where the Syrian army has no qualms about running around shelling towns and villages wholesale. 1. I suspect the American military would hesitate to use these tactics. 2. If they went ahead with it, I suspect they’d lose even more popular support 3. It hasn’t even worked in Syria, as it appears they’re still on the losing end of the fight. In Iraq I heard estimates that we were fighting something like 20K insurgents who have used high-school level chemistry and small arms, and we had something like 150K - 250K soldiers. If 1% of the American population decided to take up arms, that’s 3 million revolutionaries. ---
**Author:** ![desertmonk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@desertmonk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/desertmonk)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/289 "2013-02-04T23:20:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The revolutionary war was fought largely with personal firearms. > > Victory in the civil war was not won because the insurrectionists were breaking the law. > > There are 300 MILLION firearms in the country. There are fewer than 2.5 million members of the military, national guard, and reserves. I’m going to guess that a lot of those folks would stand with the citizenry in defense of liberty if that time ever came. I don’t think that time will ever come but having an armed citizenry probably makes it even less likely. I think it is just as likely that quite a few armed civilians would support their nation’s army against any homegrown “terrorist” (as they would be styled by the government). If the DOL ever comes to pass it will not be as one mass uprising fighting for liberty. People frequently rally around the flag of their country, even if it is repressing them. ---
**Author:** ![desertmonk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@desertmonk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/desertmonk)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/290 "2013-02-04T23:27:16Z")
To those of you that believe in the Defense of Liberty argument, would you fight (with a gun or support with money) for the rights of other individuals because **they** believed they were being repressed. If a substantial number of U.S. citizens of hispanic or African descent decided America was a tyranny would you fight the U.S. Army to support that uprising? Or would you see them as rebels out to destroy the country? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/291 "2013-02-04T23:40:37Z")
> [@desertmonk](#): > > To those of you that believe in the Defense of Liberty argument, would you fight (with a gun or support with money) for the rights of other individuals because **they** believed they were being repressed. If a substantial number of U.S. citizens of hispanic or African descent decided America was a tyranny would you fight the U.S. Army to support that uprising? Or would you see them as rebels out to destroy the country? Depends on if they were in actuality being “repressed” or if it was just a figment of their imagination I suppose. If my Jewish neighbors started getting shipped off to concentration camps, I’d start shooting at those doing the shipping, even though I’m not Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/292 "2013-02-04T23:54:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Depends on if they were in actuality being “repressed” or if it was just a figment of their imagination I suppose. If my Jewish neighbors started getting shipped off to concentration camps, I’d start shooting at those doing the shipping, even though I’m not Jewish. Really? How about if they were Japanese-Americans during WWII? ---
**Author:** ![desertmonk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@desertmonk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/desertmonk)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/293 "2013-02-05T00:07:21Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Really? How about if they were Japanese-Americans during WWII? Right, would all of you fight as the Jews were being moved to “Relocation camps out east somewhere”? The Japanese were moved to “Relocation” camps too. It happened with the support of those that were not being repressed. It seems to be sheer fantasy to think that some future government will do something that will universally be considered tyranny. Most likely their tyranny will come with the wide support of American citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/294 "2013-02-05T00:24:28Z")
> [@desertmonk](#): > > Right, would all of you fight as the Jews were being moved to “Relocation camps out east somewhere”? The Japanese were moved to “Relocation” camps too. It happened with the support of those that were not being repressed. It seems to be sheer fantasy to think that some future government will do something that will universally be considered tyranny. Most likely their tyranny will come with the wide support of American citizenry. Along these lines, I was surprised to read that the World War One-era Sedition Act of 1918\*, one of the most egregious infringements on free speech in modern times, was not pushed by the government but was actually a response to widespread vigilante persecution of those considered “disloyal” to the war effort. Many senators at the time opposed it on free speech grounds, but for a variety of reasons passing it became politically expedient. In accordance with the jingoistic sentiments of the day, it was widely popular. \*technically, a series of amendments to the 1917 Espionage Act. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/295 "2013-02-05T02:14:51Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Did I read that wrong? 16 percent of the increase, which is what that careful study documented, is a lot less than the entire rise in murders, which is how you characterized my link. In any event, the absolute numbers dwarf the tragedy of school shootings. [According to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives, nearly 70 percent of all firearms recovered in Mexico and submitted to the agency from 2007 to 2011 were traced back to the U.S. This does not account for all weapons used by drug trafficking cartels, but most analysts agree that the overwhelming majority of firearms that find their way into the hands of the “narcos” come from the U.S.]([American Arms Reach Deep Into Mexico’s Bloodshed | IBTimes](http://www.ibtimes.com/american-arms-reach-deep-mexicos-bloodshed-1017948)) The statistics do mean that great majority of the murders would still happen if Mexican criminals had to make do with non-US, or smaller magazine, guns. But that still leaves thousands dying, and the reputation of the US being seriously harmed, because of the extremely rare American fantasy scenario of getting into an extended shootout with a burglar. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/296 "2013-02-05T03:45:27Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > 16 percent of the increase, which is what that careful study documented, is a lot less than the entire rise in murders, which is how you characterized my link. > > In any event, the absolute numbers dwarf the tragedy of school shootings. > > [According to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives, nearly 70 percent of all firearms recovered in Mexico and submitted to the agency from 2007 to 2011 were traced back to the U.S. > > This does not account for all weapons used by drug trafficking cartels, but most analysts agree that the overwhelming majority of firearms that find their way into the hands of the “narcos” come from the U.S.]([American Arms Reach Deep Into Mexico’s Bloodshed | IBTimes](http://www.ibtimes.com/american-arms-reach-deep-mexicos-bloodshed-1017948)) > > The statistics do mean that great majority of the murders would still happen if Mexican criminals had to make do with non-US, or smaller magazine, guns. But that still leaves thousands dying, and the reputation of the US being seriously harmed, because of the extremely rare American fantasy scenario of getting into an extended shootout with a burglar. Thank you for clarifying that. I swear I read it 10 times and missed the “of the” every time. I still disagree with the findings as there was no confiscatory measures in the aw ban so any increases in the homicide rate are difficult for me to pin on its expiration. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/297 "2013-02-05T05:23:39Z")
For my part, I accept as a fact that America will never in your lifetime or mine or our grandchildren’s be a disarmed society to the extent of the UK or Japan. I do not even have any brief for any particular gun-control regime (though I think Canada’s is at least worth studying and learning from, the culture and conditions being so very similar to ours). No, my position is simply that gun ownership **is not a matter that merits constitutional protection.** It should not be regarded as a “right” in the sense that free speech is a right. It does not deserve to be set above-and-beyond the reach of the ordinary legislative/political process in that way. Gun control should be **merely** a political issue, to be threshed out at the polls and in the legislatures, not in the courts – and, of course, American gun owners and gun-rights activists will for generations to come be very strong at the polls and in the legislatures. So what? Legislatures can look at policy studies, evaluate gun-control efforts on their merits and effects, try things and reject what turns out not to work in practice, and be accountable to the voters for the results. That is good enough, it is how reasonable public policy can and is and should be made. But we do not have any good or rational use for the Second Amendment in this day and age. My position, also, is that gun control in and of itself is not all that important, compared to other issues facing our society, like the distribution of wealth. It’s like gay marriage – I’m all and unreservedly for it, but, if I were a politician, I would not give it a very high priority compared with a lot of other things. The lack of it is no **existential** threat to our society, no more than the presence of it; and likewise with guns. They kill a lot of people needlessly, but in terms of the general health of American society, guns are like a flu compared to cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/298 "2013-02-05T13:47:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They wanted a small standing army, and a large militia ready to be mobilized in an emergency, to **serve** the state, not fight it. Eventually it developed that that is not a workable model for national defense, and that, at least in an American setting with American political culture, a large standing army is not the threat-to-liberty that it appeared to be in the 18th Century. “Serve the state”? Have you thought about how that sounds? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, my position is simply that gun ownership **is not a matter that merits constitutional protection.** It should not be regarded as a “right” in the sense that free speech is a right. It does not deserve to be set above-and-beyond the reach of the ordinary legislative/political process in that way. Gun control should be **merely** a political issue, to be threshed out at the polls and in the legislatures, not in the courts Then sorry but on this point you will always be opposed by a large percentage of people who find this stance repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/299 "2013-02-05T15:00:41Z")
Lumpy, Actually, the public stance is moving to favor BrianGlutton’s point. Crane ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/300 "2013-02-05T16:43:34Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Lumpy, > > Actually, the public stance is moving to favor BrianGlutton’s point. > > Crane Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002.md?page=16)