# Guns and the defense of liberty. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002 "2013-01-12T22:47:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/21 "2013-01-14T04:42:12Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It was a hellhole not that long ago. Your point being? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/22 "2013-01-14T04:49:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Your point being? Obviously that hellholes tend to come and go. What you don’t like history? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/23 "2013-01-14T04:53:22Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Maybe disarmament doesn’t mean tyranny but tyranny definitely means disarmament. No it doesn’t; gun ownership under Saddam in Iraq was common. It didn’t make him any less tyrannical or threaten his tyranny in any way. Rifles and handguns are simply not a threat to any halfway-functional modern government, whatever fantasies the gun fetishists cherish on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/24 "2013-01-14T13:50:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it doesn’t; gun ownership under Saddam in Iraq was common. It didn’t make him any less tyrannical or threaten his tyranny in any way. Rifles and handguns are simply not a threat to any halfway-functional modern government, whatever fantasies the gun fetishists cherish on the matter. From what I understand, Saddam only handed out guns to those on his side. "The large-scale distribution of weapons began during the war with Iran, when the government gave Iraqi-made AK-47s to decommissioned soldiers, members of the ruling Baath Party and tribal leaders. But it has dramatically escalated in recent months. Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz said last month that officials had handed out “hundreds of thousands of weapons” since the Bush administration began deploying additional forces to the Persian Gulf. One group largely left out of the gun distribution has been Shiite Muslims, who make up about 55 percent of the population but whose allegiance has been questioned by Hussein and other top leaders, who are predominantly Sunni Muslims. In 1991, after the Persian Gulf War, Shiites rebelled against government forces in several southern cities. Today, some Shiites still are quietly loyal to a large opposition group based in Iran, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, whose leader has vowed to send fighters into Iraq to oppose Hussein if U.S. forces invade." > **[NewsMine.org - Arms civilians](http://newsmine.org/content.php?ol=war-on-terror%2Firaq%2Fpre-invasion%2Farms-civilians.txt)** I don’t think handing out the weapons worked as well as Saddam hoped, but I do think it worked a lot better than we would have hoped. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/25 "2013-01-14T15:30:16Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Obviously that hellholes tend to come and go. Irrelevant to the thread. At present Europe has (1) freedom and (2) minimal gun ownership (outside Switzerland, which is rather a special, and anachronistic, case). There has never been a time in its recent history when widespread gun ownership was any check or deterrent to tyranny or apparently could have been. **Plenty** of guns floating around Spain, for instance, during the Spanish Civil War, but Franco won anyway. The Republicans had militia, Franco had Army regulars. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/26 "2013-01-14T19:39:21Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Including the Syrian government? > > Ultimately, that if the laws are passed by representatives of the people (who presumably approve of the laws or they would elect new representatives to overturn them), then enough people support the law to put down a rebellion by those who don’t. I think it’s not a coincidence that the supermajorities needed to pass major legislation are about the same majority needed to win a civil war. > > Owning firearms might be considered a tripwire: disarming the people would be the first step of any tyranny. The secret police going out in the dead of night to arrest people would find it irksome if there was a pistol or shotgun behind every door.Maybe disarmament doesn’t mean tyranny but tyranny definitely means disarmament. Any government that _needs_ to disarm the populace just to stay in power could hardly be called a democracy. Regarding your comment about disarming the people, my dearest friend (may she rest in peace) was a young lady during the Nazi occupation; she lived in Cologne and Marseilles during WWII. She told me that, at least where she lived, one of the first things that happened with the advent of the Nazis, was civilian disarmament. She often commented that, “when some authority is disinclined to grant you the ability to defend yourself, they may not have your best interests at heart.” ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/27 "2013-01-14T20:06:27Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > The fact that it’s merely a mob, rather than a large percentage of the citizenry. The DOL argument only comes into play if things have broken down to the point where the citizenry comes to feel can no longer effect significant political change at the ballot box. That’s an unlikely scenario, but not a completely impossible one to imagine. It’s already happened: see North v South. The upshot is there’s no right to overthrow the government. Period. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/28 "2013-01-14T20:11:30Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > From what I understand, Saddam only handed out guns to those on his side. > > .. That is utter bullshit. [Some](http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/gun-culture-iraq-t28875.html) [articles](http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0310/p01s03-woiq.html) on [Iraqi gun culture](http://iraqslogger.powweb.com/index.php/post/5156/Iraqs_Gun_Culture_Starts_With_Its_Children?PHPSESSID=b155c5eb6418ac653ca2ce675e6fb7f8) Some countries have gun cultures. Other do not. There is little or no correlation between “liberty” and “gun ownership”. Only Americans think (as illustrated on this thread) that their Glocks are simehow going to stop a government take over. Nobody else thinks that anywhere in the world. CItizens cannot hope to defeat the coersive power of the state in open battle. Period. Or at least sans help from wihout, defections amongst security forces etc. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/29 "2013-01-14T20:14:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It is necessary to own a gun in order to keep the government from taking it away. Obvious, no? No, not unless you’ve got an army, a navy and an air force too. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/30 "2013-01-14T20:43:29Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > No, not unless you’ve got an army, a navy and an air force too. Man, the Coast Guard never gets any love. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/31 "2013-01-14T20:55:37Z")
DOL is bogus mostly in the sense that the US Military is more than capable of taking every single gun in this country if needed, and no gun owner could stop them. Hell the US Armed forces just took over two countries that have people more than happy to blow themselves up to kill others… and still, in a very short time governments and armies were overthrown. No AR15 is stoping a tank rolling down your street to take a gun. The government isn’t not turning into a dictorship because Bubba has a stockpile of weapons. Its because they are Americans too and have no desire to see the country they love turn into a police state. DOL is a joke, your defense of liberity is being lucky enough to live in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/32 "2013-01-15T04:18:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Irrelevant to the thread. At present Europe has (1) freedom and (2) minimal gun ownership (outside Switzerland, which is rather a special, and anachronistic, case). There has never been a time in its recent history when widespread gun ownership was any check or deterrent to tyranny or apparently could have been. **Plenty** of guns floating around Spain, for instance, during the Spanish Civil War, but Franco won anyway. The Republicans had militia, Franco had Army regulars. Historically speaking, how long have countries with freedom kept it? What are your thoughts on the Bielski partisans? > **[Bielski partisans | Activities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans#Activities)** > > The Bielski unit's partisans were primarily concerned with survival. Due to their poor equipment and training, they were not assigned main combat roles. Instead, its members operated field kitchens, hospitals, and bakeries and provided tailoring and cobbling services for Soviet soldiers. Their main task, though, was forced requisitioning of food and other supplies from the local population. The Bielski partisan group decided to prioritize saving Jews; Tuvia Bielski said "I would rather The Biel... How about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising > **[Warsaw Ghetto Uprising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising)** > > April uprising: > The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising\[a\] was the 1943 act of Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto in German-occupied Poland during World War II to oppose Nazi Germany's final effort to transport the remaining ghetto population to the gas chambers of the Majdanek and Treblinka extermination camps. How about the Army of the Republic of Bosnia… > **[Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_the_Republic_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)** > > The Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Bosnian: Armija Republike Bosne i Hercegovine; Cyrillic: .mw-parser-output .script-Cprt{font-size:1.25em;font-family:"Segoe UI Historic","Noto Sans Cypriot",Code2001}.mw-parser-output .script-Hano{font-size:125%;font-family:"Noto Sans Hanunoo",FreeSerif,Quivira}.mw-parser-output .script-Latf,.mw-parser-output .script-de-Latf{font-size:1.25em;font-family:"Breitkopf Fraktur",UnifrakturCook,UniFrakturMaguntia,MarsFraktur,"MarsFraktur OT",KochFraktu... …in the Siege of Sarajevo? > **[Siege of Sarajevo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo#The_siege_of_Sarajevo)** > > Military stalemate > Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia > United Nations ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/33 "2013-01-15T04:21:11Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > DOL is a joke, your defense of liberity is being lucky enough to live in the USA. Unless you were an Japanese American in 1942… > **[Internment of Japanese Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment)** > > During World War II, the United States forcibly relocated and incarcerated about 120,000 people of Japanese descent in ten concentration camps operated by the War Relocation Authority (WRA), mostly in the western interior of the country. About two-thirds were U.S. citizens. These actions were initiated by Executive Order 9066, issued by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on February 19, 1942, following the outbreak of war with the Empire of Japan in December 1941. About 127,000 Japanese Americans th... …or black slave before that, or an indian before that. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/34 "2013-01-15T04:50:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It is necessary to own a gun in order to keep the government from taking it away. Obvious, no? [http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-paranoid-government-coming-for-his-guns,30638/](http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-paranoid-government-coming-for-his-guns,30638/) “The thing for damn sure is you can’t trust 'em,” Obama told reporters Thursday morning, cradling a .22-caliber bolt-action hunting rifle in his arms. “No matter how hard you work or how many taxes you pay, the goddamn government’s sure as shit gonna pass some law or officiate some warrant to try and take your guns. Because when the people don’t have any guns, that’s when they take control.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/35 "2013-01-15T05:09:21Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Historically speaking, how long have countries with freedom kept it? > > What are your thoughts on the Bielski partisans? > [Bielski partisans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans#Activities) > > How about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising > [Warsaw Ghetto Uprising - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising) :rolleyes: Oh, Godw– ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/36 "2013-01-15T05:23:19Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Historically speaking, how long have countries with freedom kept it? > > What are your thoughts on the Bielski partisans? > [Bielski partisans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans#Activities) > > How about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising > [Warsaw Ghetto Uprising - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising) > > How about the Army of the Republic of Bosnia… > [Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_the_Republic_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) > > …in the Siege of Sarajevo? > [Siege of Sarajevo - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo#The_siege_of_Sarajevo) How about a much more recent first world example, and dare I say, more of a relevant example: What about the UK? Doesn’t seemed to have turned into a jack booted police state recently despite confiscating pretty much all firearms. In fact, I would have to look it up but IIRC England and Wales have 1/3 the firearm deaths per capita compared with the US. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/37 "2013-01-15T05:32:21Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Unless you were an Japanese American in 1942… > > [Internment of Japanese Americans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment) > > …or black slave before that, or an indian before that. Guns were less restrictive in the 1940’s than now. Why didn’t Japanese-Americans protect their liberty? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/38 "2013-01-15T05:35:14Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Guns were less restrictive in the 1940’s than now. Why didn’t Japanese-Americans protect their liberty? That would have been impolite. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/39 "2013-01-15T05:39:41Z")
Last thread we had about whether guns protect freedom, I actually ran a linear regression to see whether there was empirical evidence for privately-held guns helping to prevent tyranny. [Details here, but the punchline is, there wasn’t.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15162136&postcount=109) The sole objection anyone raised about it (to which I neglected to respond in-thread), was that there could be a conditional variable — but that objection does not actually address the empirical evidence, since conditional variables don’t destroy a relationship. There’s no cumulative evidence for the guns-help-freedom argument. I personally think that lack of evidence should be enough to trash it right there, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002/40 "2013-01-15T13:35:21Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > There’s no cumulative evidence for the guns-help-freedom argument. I personally think that lack of evidence should be enough to trash it right there, but YMMV. Do you think guns helped the Bielski partisans? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-and-the-defense-of-liberty/647002.md?page=3)