# Guns are for Cowards? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350 "2004-07-22T15:10:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/21 "2004-07-22T18:06:17Z")
Stating that only cowards use/like/carry guns is the same as stating anyone who carries pepper spray or a safety whistle are cowards. They are used to prevent harm to ones self, and are just tools. If someone does not wish to be raped, assaulted, mugged, or killed, then they should be able to carry what ever tools they feel necessary to achieve that. Of course there is machismo in the gun world, but you will find the same behavior in the car world, flashlight world, and computer world. Same thing, just different toys. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/22 "2004-07-22T18:07:25Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Oh for Christsakes, I assumed the disclaimer would prevent this. My fault. > > What I was referring to was CRIMINAL behaviour, not defending one’s self, not being a soldier, and not walking into a room full of gun-totting gangsters armed with only your wits, fists and gadgets…unless you’re prepared. > > Clearer? It’s clearer that you’re drawing some imaginary line, and expecting somehow that CRIMINAL situtions will be lit up with unambiguous “THIS IS A CRIMINAL SITUTATION, FIRE AWAY!” banners in pretty green and red neon, and all other situtations are (or should be) gun-free. Further, you’re confusing “cowardly” with “dishonourable”, and while I’ll admit there is some overlap, the latter concept has a lot of obsolete chivarly baggage tied to it. In any case, I wouldn’t call the use of guns cowardly per se, since the same effect can be had if you club somebody in their sleep, or when they enter a room or turn a corner or at any other time without warning. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/23 "2004-07-22T18:18:15Z")
I would shoot someone in order to protect my kids; if that makes me a coward, well, I could live with that. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/24 "2004-07-22T18:27:56Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Since there was no link to the original thread, there’s no way to judge DtC’s comment. Well, [HERE is the thread in which the comment appears,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=267629) and [THIS is the FIRST post in which Diogenes the Cynic’s opinion was posted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5091620&postcount=13) He repeats him/her self later in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/25 "2004-07-22T18:29:09Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > It’s clearer that you’re drawing some imaginary line, and expecting somehow that CRIMINAL situtions will be lit up with unambiguous “THIS IS A CRIMINAL SITUTATION, FIRE AWAY!” banners in pretty green and red neon, and all other situtations are (or should be) gun-free. > > Further, you’re confusing “cowardly” with “dishonourable”, and while I’ll admit there is some overlap, the latter concept has a lot of obsolete chivarly baggage tied to it. In any case, I wouldn’t call the use of guns cowardly per se, since the same effect can be had if you club somebody in their sleep, or when they enter a room or turn a corner or at any other time without warning. I’m not confusing anything and you’re missing my point. I don’t think it’s a far stretch that most criminals today are cowards and guns are their weapons of choice because they allow them to kill with little risk to themselves and even less skill. I doubt that most even have the guts to club someone to death in their sleep. Again Clubbing reguires certain risk, that standing at the foot of the bed and shooting doesn’t. Still these scenarios are infinite in their possibilities. So I will say AGAIN, for me in MY opinion. I personally would never posion, come up from behind or shoot a person; let alone club them while they were asleep. I would consider it a cowardly act. FOR ME. If I feel that a killing needs to be done, it’s gonna be bloody and HANDS ON. and once again the usual disclaimers apply. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/26 "2004-07-22T19:08:26Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > This is MY opinion and a general statement. Killing is or SHOULD be a personal thing. You should be willing to get up close to a person when you end their life. Using your hands, a bladed weapon, even a club REQUIRES physical contact, sensation and the realization of what you’re doing and how hard people will fight for their lives AND the risk that you may have chosen the wrong person and end up in the ground yourself. > > Using a gun, allows you the option to kill without ‘mess’; from a distance and therefor distance yourself from the act. > > Of course this is subject to the standard disclaimers. This is an interesting theory. Have you ever read **On Killing** , by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman? It studies the difference in how we process the various means of killing (both in terms of distance and implements), and explores how the armed forces manipulate the psychological differences to edge ‘normal’ people closer to being professional killers through a gradual desensitization program. Fascinating read, even if I don’t agree with all of his conclusions. And **Bippy** - damn straight, son. Damn straight. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/27 "2004-07-22T19:17:01Z")
Sorry I’m late. I didn’t know this thread was here until just now. I will exclude the following from my slur against gun owners: Military personel Law enforcement personel Anyone else who requires a firearm in the duties of a job or in the acqusition of food. (That does not, IMO, include sport hunters who hunt for fun rather than need). Basically, it is my position that people who think they need guns are generally just compensating for some other feeling of inferiority or fear. To put it simply. i think guns for guys who don’t have the guts to fight with their fists. I have never felt the need to own a gun for self defense, nor have I felt the desire to kill defenseless ducks or rabbits to make my penis feel bigger. I have a family, but I think a firearm in the house would place them in more danger rather than less. If someone were to break into my home, I would not need a gun to defend my family. And to be perfectly honest, I think an awful lot of gun enthusiasm borders on fetishism. I think it makes inadequate men feel powerful. Are there exceptions? of course. Is it a facetious overgeneralization to say flippantly that “guns are for cowards?” Yep. Does that mean I’m wrong that an awful lot of guys can’t feel like men without guns in their hands? I don’t think so. Do I want to take their guns away from them? Nope. I just think they’re mostly pathetic individuals. Doesn’t mean I want to confiscate their phallic boomsticks. This is all IMO, of course. I’m not on a crusade to convince anybody that I’m right. Flame away. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/28 "2004-07-22T19:17:21Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > So I will say AGAIN, for me in MY opinion. I personally would never posion, come up from behind or shoot a person; let alone club them while they were asleep. I would consider it a cowardly act. FOR ME. > > If I feel that a killing needs to be done, it’s gonna be bloody and HANDS ON. Fair enough. FOR ME, though, if a killing has to be done, it may as well be as clean and tidy as possible, and if picking off my adversary from 400 yards fits the bill, so be it. I don’t really feel the need to cover myself in viscera, but that’s just ME. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/29 "2004-07-22T19:24:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Flame away. What if we respond with logic, instead? Your clarification neatly omits the possibility of a woman who likes carrying handguns because she feels her “fists” wouldn’t be adequate against a male attacker. If such a woman takes classes in the use of her handgun, or owns several handguns, is she compensating for a small penis? Is she cowardly or not? ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/30 "2004-07-22T19:38:31Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What if we respond with logic, instead? Your clarification neatly omits the possibility of a woman who likes carrying handguns because she feels her “fists” wouldn’t be adequate against a male attacker. If such a woman takes classes in the use of her handgun, or owns several handguns, is she compensating for a small penis? Is she cowardly or not? I’ll not answer for **Diogenes,** but as a man that has little use for firearms, I’ll take a stab (ha!) at it. I think that some women who get guns are cowards. Some are not. A woman that makes an informed decision, goes through the proper classes, practices with her weapon at a range, is in my opinion, not a coward. If we’re talking about a woman that has been mugged, and then feels like she needs to go out and get a gun to be safe again, just going down to the gun shop and picking up something that looks intimidating, then I think she fits the bill. And I make the distinction because the second woman is more likely to shoot at something that she perceives to be a threat, whether it is or not. Cowards are notorious for lashing out when threatened, and that makes them dangerous. (insert snarky remark about the US here) I also think that one can not deny the level of fetishism (good word!) that accompanies the marketing, collecting, and use of guns. It is the same sexually charged machismo that is used to sell beer, trucks, and other things a ‘real man’ won’t be caught without. The most well adjusted gun owners that I know are the ones that will never tell you they own a gun, and never feel the need to show off. To them, the gun is a tool like any other, and not an extension of their manhood. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/31 "2004-07-22T19:39:50Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > This is an interesting theory. Have you ever read **On Killing** , by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman? No but it makes common sense. If you’ve ever been in a fight when you have your opponent in a choke hold, you are aware of every breath he struggles to take, and that feeling of panic that hits him once he realizes he’s gonna die unless you let him go and you have a choice to make; is whatever wrong he did to you worth this? Any distance weapon can reduce that understanding and the option to stop…I’m not talking cowardly here, just understanding what you’re doing. Most people stop when the blood starts flowing…with a gun it’s often too late. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/32 "2004-07-22T19:41:21Z")
She doesn’t need a handgun. A can of mace would do just fine. Yes, she’s a coward. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/33 "2004-07-22T19:55:33Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > The most well adjusted gun owners that I know are the ones that will never tell you they own a gun, and never feel the need to show off. To them, the gun is a tool like any other, and not an extension of their manhood. Exactly. It’s the guys who can’t shut up about the subject. The ones who read gun magazines and memorize endless jargon, the ones who actually think they are impressing people by talking about their gun collections, the ones who are just way too \*into/i] it. Those guys give me the creeps. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/34 "2004-07-22T20:06:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > She doesn’t need a handgun. A can of mace would do just fine. Yes, she’s a coward. Time for a disclaimer. DTC there are some people who, whether due to tolerance to pain, crazy, high or in such a blind rage, mace or pepper spray simply won’t cut it. Hell even hitting them in the head with a bat won’t stop them. Even in a blind attack, if he gets his hands on her, she’s in trouble…sorry but in such a case BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY applies. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/35 "2004-07-22T20:14:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If someone were to break into my home, I would not need a gun to defend my family. Uh, what if that someone where a “coward” and had a gun of their own? Same goes for the woman with the mace. However, if all criminals didn’t have guns, then you might be safe. Lord knows that works in England (oh wait). ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/36 "2004-07-22T20:14:53Z")
WRT to DtC’s comment in the other thread, I think it was an unnecessary and unhelpful comment at that time. WRT to his comments here, clarifying his position, he’s got a good point about a segment of the gun toting population. There is something disturbing about the hyper pro-gun crowd. However, a blanket statement about cowardice seems to be going too far. I can see a perfectly valid use for guns that has nothing to do with cowardice, merely equipping yourself with the best option for your circumstance. A can of mace, while useful, is not really a substitute for a handgun. Certainly some people are scared, have poor self esteem and use a gun to compensate, but I hardly think it’s the majority of gun owners. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/37 "2004-07-22T20:33:54Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Time for a disclaimer. DTC there are some people who, whether due to tolerance to pain, crazy, high or in such a blind rage, mace or pepper spray simply won’t cut it. Hell even hitting them in the head with a bat won’t stop them. > > Even in a blind attack, if he gets his hands on her, she’s in trouble…sorry but in such a case BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY applies. Well, sometimes bullets won’t stop a person either. I just think that 99.99999% of the time, a gun is going to be way out of proportion to the situation. I also think that the hypothetical super-human meth freak is more of a rhetorical device than a real fear. I also want to reiterate that I’m not looking to take anyone’s guns away from them. This is purely a subjective, moral judgement on my part, not a call for legislation. I’m creeped out by the gun culture. I find a lot of the self-defense arguments to be contrived and disingenuous. That’s just me. I have no wish to take it any further than a personal feeling, though. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/38 "2004-07-22T20:49:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Well, sometimes bullets won’t stop a person either. > > I just think that 99.99999% of the time, a gun is going to be way out of proportion to the situation. I also think that the hypothetical super-human meth freak is more of a rhetorical device than a real fear. DTC, I’m not talking about a meth freak, just a pissed off ahole. The guy gets maced and goes nuts swinging wild and lunging in the direction of the person who spayed him. I’ve seen it happen. Now did we shoot him? No, a couple of guys grabbed his arms, legs and tossed him into the street…but it took 4 GUYS…big guys to do it. Mace in the hands of a civilian is a weapon of retreat, NOT defense. It only works IF you can use it and escape. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/39 "2004-07-22T21:19:30Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I think that some women who get guns are cowards. Some are not. Well, as long as you’re willing to take it on a case-by-case basis, unlike Diogenes the Generalist, okay. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350/40 "2004-07-22T21:57:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I just think that 99.99999% of the time, a gun is going to be way out of proportion to the situation. I also think that the hypothetical super-human meth freak is more of a rhetorical device than a real fear. Whereas your statistic is …? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-for-cowards/256350.md?page=3)