# Guns are not designed to kill people **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402 "2008-11-06T03:20:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/221 "2008-11-12T09:27:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So the constitution refers to rare Chinese guns ,which were not even here. Maybe it refers to French dueling pistols. Or maybe you are wrong. > Handguns came much later. The weapon of use in America at the revolution was the musket and hunting rifle. You really should study both the history of guns and the Constitution before you allow yourself to make any more pronouncements like the above. Do you also believe that freedom of speech does not extend to any of the modern methods of communication because they weren’t invented when the Constitution was written? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/222 "2008-11-12T11:37:18Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So the constitution refers to rare Chinese guns ,which were not even here. Maybe it refers to French dueling pistols. Or maybe you are wrong. > Handguns came much later. The weapon of use in America at the revolution was the musket and hunting rifle. [http://www.mountvernon.org/store/shopping/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewitem/pid/1187/](http://www.mountvernon.org/store/shopping/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewitem/pid/1187/) I’m failing to understand your point, gonzomax. Do you understand what a handgun is? Why do you feel it ‘came much later’? Do you understand the term ‘sidearm’? Do you feel that handguns were invented by Mr. Samuel Colt? Why? He did invent the revolver, and I thank him for it, but the revolver is _not_ the only form of handgun. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/223 "2008-11-12T14:28:12Z")
> [@LOUNE](#): > > > [@enipla](#): > > > > LOUNE For the third time, I would THINK about agreeing to registration if those guns that I register would be exempt from future bans or confiscation. > > > > How do you feel about that? > > > > ….. > > > > Is that ‘overkill’ ? Perhaps. Here’s the flashlight. > > > > Who wants to come with me? > > Sure. I’m down. Which is it? #1 #2 or both. 1. As I said, I would think about agreeing to registration if the gun would be exempt from future bans or confiscation. Not sure I would trust such legislation. But I see this as a compromise. or 1. That my part time neighbor had a bear break into his crawl space last year and make a den is very real. I stated I was going to take a hand gun with me when I check it out. I may take a rifle too. If the bear is back, I’ll call the division of wildlife. BUT I don’t want to be slogging around in the snow actively looking for a bear den in a place that I know they have been before with out a bit of protection. While I’ll admit my situation is very rare, I am trying to show that there are other uses for guns, even hand guns, besides robbing 7-11s. What are you ‘down’ on? ---
**Author:** ![nootlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/49beb7/32.png) [@nootlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nootlin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/224 "2008-11-12T14:52:30Z")
Guns are not designed to kill people, people are encouraged to kill people, with guns designed to facilitate this against designated people to kill. Is this better? (NB: I only read the first page and could see the discussion spiralling into a yay or nay for gun control, so I thought I might come full circle!) ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/225 "2008-11-12T15:41:46Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Which is it? #1 #2 or both. > > 1. As I said, I would think about agreeing to registration if the gun would be exempt from future bans or confiscation. Not sure I would trust such legislation. But I see this as a compromise. > > or > > 1. That my part time neighbor had a bear break into his crawl space last year and make a den is very real. I stated I was going to take a hand gun with me when I check it out. I may take a rifle too. If the bear is back, I’ll call the division of wildlife. BUT I don’t want to be slogging around in the snow actively looking for a bear den in a place that I know they have been before with out a bit of protection. > > While I’ll admit my situation is very rare, I am trying to show that there are other uses for guns, even hand guns, besides robbing 7-11s. > > What are you ‘down’ on? Both. I know there my be other uses for handguns, but the scenario you painted virtually doesn’t happen in America. Oh it did happen to you, but that’s why we have Animal Control. By the way, I’m cool with CCW permits. I’m sure you guys have the stats more readily available, but I assume that people that have CCW permits don’t go out and cause the crimes. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/226 "2008-11-12T15:54:55Z")
Washington used the locals to help fight his battles. They fought with personally owned flintlocks which were used for hunting. They were very helpful. Washington made it clear that he wanted Americans at that time,to keep their weapons to help fight the English. When the Brits were in control they confiscated guns to try to end the citizen soldiers. It was never about handguns which were somewhere between very rare and non existent. The hand gun we refer to was invented in the next century. The 2nd amendment came in 1791 ,50 years before Colt came up with the manufactured hand gun. When the 2nd amendment was passed it was not about handguns. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/227 "2008-11-12T15:57:51Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > …By the way, I’m cool with CCW permits. I’m sure you guys have the stats more readily available, but I assume that people that have CCW permits don’t go out and cause the crimes. Pretty rare for sure. I can find a cite if anyone is interested. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/228 "2008-11-12T16:10:43Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Pretty rare for sure. I can find a cite if anyone is interested. Yeah, if it’s not too much trouble. It’s one of those things that’s always been at the back of my head in gun debates. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/229 "2008-11-12T16:25:26Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Yeah, if it’s not too much trouble. It’s one of those things that’s always been at the back of my head in gun debates. Here is one from a study in Florida: [In Florida as a whole, 315,000 permits had been issued by December 31, 1995. Only five had been revoked because the permit holder committed a violent crime with a gun.](http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3574822.html) I know its dated. But it does show a trend. From that link: > [@](#): > > Permit holders are not angels, but they are an unusually law-abiding collection of citizens. In Florida, for example, permit holders are about 300 times less likely to perpetrate a gun crime than Floridians without permits. Florida’s experience has been copied nationwide. This should not be at all surprising: A person could carry a concealed handgun without a permit and, unless he gives himself away by committing some other offense, he would never be caught. Hence permit applicants tend to be those citizens willing to pay a large fee (usually more than $100) to comply with a law they could probably break with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/230 "2008-11-12T17:04:40Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Here is one from a study in Florida: > > [In Florida as a whole, 315,000 permits had been issued by December 31, 1995. Only five had been revoked because the permit holder committed a violent crime with a gun.](http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3574822.html) > > I know its dated. But it does show a trend. From that link: Well, now we have a conundrum. I’m fine with CCW holders, but more folks would want a CCW in order to have a handgun, which could drive those rates you talked about higher. As it stands, I’ve got no problem with CCW and handguns. I haven’t made up my mind if I’d keep the CCW permits if we outlawed handguns or not. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/231 "2008-11-12T23:21:43Z")
**LOUNE** You suggested that we should ban handguns. And look for a compromise. You have offered no compromise. > [@LEONE](#): > > Both. I know there my be other uses for handguns, but the scenario you painted virtually doesn’t happen in America. Oh it did happen to you, but that’s why we have Animal Control. Virtually it does. Ask me. I’ve had to call the DOW for an injured moose in my yard, and my Wife worked for animal control for five years. Do you know anything about the Division of Wildlife or animal control? Share your stories. Anecdotes are fine. > [@LOUNE](#): > > Both So you wouldn’t mind if any registered gun would be ban proof. And It’s OK for me to carry a handgun to see if the bear has come back to my neighbors house. It follows that you think it’s OK for me to own a handgun. Except that you want to ban all handguns. OK… > [@LEONE](#): > > By the way, I’m cool with CCW permits. I’m sure you guys have the stats more readily available, but I assume that people that have CCW permits don’t go out and cause the crimes. So. Concealed carry weapon (CCW) permits are OK. But you want to ban handguns? Please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/232 "2008-11-12T23:24:58Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > **LOUNE** You suggested that we should ban handguns. And look for a compromise. You have offered no compromise. > > Virtually it does. Ask me. > > I’ve had to call the DOW for an injured moose in my yard, and my Wife worked for animal control for five years. Do you know anything about the Division of Wildlife or animal control? Share your stories. Anecdotes are fine. > So you wouldn’t mind if any registered gun would be ban proof. And It’s OK for me to carry a handgun to see if the bear has come back to my neighbors house. It follows that you think it’s OK for me to own a handgun. Except that you want to ban all handguns. > > OK… > > So. Concealed carry weapon (CCW) permits are OK. But you want to ban handguns? > > Please elaborate. Don’t know where you’ve been, but there have been plenty of compromises offered. Hell, virtually everything that’s been asked of in return has been cool with me. It’s been splashed across the last couple pages in this thread. If you want, I can go back and point them back out again, but you’ll do just as good a job as I can. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/233 "2008-11-13T00:08:09Z")
Hey **LOUNE** You originally suggested that handguns be banned. You never retracted that. You went on to say that CCW permits should be allowed. My question to you is – How can you support CCW, while you also want to put a ban on handguns? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/234 "2008-11-13T02:24:03Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The hand gun we refer to was invented in the next century. The 2nd amendment came in 1791 ,50 years before Colt came up with the manufactured hand gun. When the 2nd amendment was passed it was not about handguns. You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts. The handgun was reasonably common circa 1791. George Washington, for example, owned one. (see above link.) The handgun was not invented by Colt. I don’t know where you got this idea in your head. The _revolver_ was invented by Colt. Revolvers are one of _several_ sorts of pistol. [http://www.amazon.com/1700s-Revolutionary-War-Flintlock-Pistol/dp/B000MCB1EU](http://www.amazon.com/1700s-Revolutionary-War-Flintlock-Pistol/dp/B000MCB1EU) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/235 "2008-11-13T02:39:54Z")
[![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hamilton-burr-duel.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hamilton-burr-duel.jpg) Tell me, what do you think they used in duels at the time? Will you deny that Alexander Hamilton was shot dead? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/236 "2008-11-13T03:16:21Z")
So we fought off the Brittish with dueling pistols. Wow, the things you can learn. Please tell me that we had a huge amount of dueling pistols and thats why 2nd amend refers to “handguns” I need you to say it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/237 "2008-11-13T03:21:23Z")
Wait…are you claiming that handguns weren’t used in warfare (specifically in the Revolutionary War)?? Your point about the hand gun ‘we refer to’ being invented after 1791 is silly…since the rifle we know today is as different from the musket of the Revolution as the hand gun is. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/238 "2008-11-13T03:38:57Z")
Apparently few if any anti-gunners have bothered to read Heller, or maybe it was read with their head stuck in the sand. > [@](#): > > that the operative clause of the Second Amendment—“the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”—is controlling and refers to a pre-existing right of individuals to possess and carry personal weapons for self-defense > … > Therefore, the District of Columbia’s handgun ban is unconstitutional, as it “amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of ‘arms’ that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense”. Similarly, the requirement that any firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock is unconstitutional, as it “makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense”. There is no way I will agree to a prohibition on an entire class of arms that Americans overwhelmingly choose for lawful uses, including handguns and the so-called “assault weapons”. I’ve yet to see a compelling reason why I should agree to anything, especially since the NRA and gun owners have done all the compromising for 80 years. Which of your 1st amendment rights are you willing to give up? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/239 "2008-11-13T05:35:14Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Hey **LOUNE** You originally suggested that handguns be banned. You never retracted that. > > You went on to say that CCW permits should be allowed. > > My question to you is – How can you support CCW, while you also want to put a ban on handguns? Obviously the CCW would be the loophole by which people can get handguns. And yes, we’d want strict control over who gets those permits. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402/240 "2008-11-13T05:36:19Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#): > > Apparently few if any anti-gunners have bothered to read Heller, or maybe it was read with their head stuck in the sand. > There is no way I will agree to a prohibition on an entire class of arms that Americans overwhelmingly choose for lawful uses, including handguns and the so-called “assault weapons”. I’ve yet to see a compelling reason why I should agree to anything, especially since the NRA and gun owners have done all the compromising for 80 years. > > Which of your 1st amendment rights are you willing to give up? Out of curiosity, what makes you point at the First for starters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-not-designed-to-kill-people/471402.md?page=13)