# "Guns are the white man's tools of oppression" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470 "2012-12-09T01:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/21 "2012-12-09T16:57:03Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Lumpy, until you come up with some reliable data, your OP is just unsupported conjecture with no grounds in reality. I’ll wait to see if anyone else chimes in but if the OP is a strawman, my apologies. Just thought I’d put it out there. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/22 "2012-12-09T17:40:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Lumpy, until you come up with some reliable data, your OP is just unsupported conjecture with no grounds in reality. What sort of reliable data are you looking for? Or, to put this another way, do you think the OP just made the whole ‘guns are the tools of white oppression’ thingy up from whole clothe, or merely that it’s not a common, conscious view of most anti-gun advocates? If the former, I invite you to simply type ‘guns are the tools of white oppression’ into Google, where you’ll see…well, ironically, this thread as the top hit ;)…but you’ll also see several other hits, ranging from the bat shit insane to, well, stuff that’s even crazier. I’m seeing 10 pages of hits on that, so unless the OP has been busy, he didn’t just make it up. If you mean the latter, well, I agree…it’s not a view point I’ve seen in most anti-gun types, at least not their primary view. I’ve mostly seen this view espoused by some of the more activist Native Americans that’ I’ve known, or sometimes by the more loony lefty types…but sometimes it slips out even by the non-loony ones, as (assuming the quote is true) in the OPs example of Obama saying something similar. However, I think most anti-gun folks come to this from other directions…mostly, I think, from fear and ignorance and being really bad at understanding risk and probability. I don’t say this to rile folks up, but to me the whole ‘we need gun control because of how many folks are killed every year!’ thingy is similar to the anti-nuke crowd, though with slightly more justification. But it all comes down to a failure to understand the actual numbers in the context of the number of people in this country…or the truly staggering number of ways people die or are injured in this country every day. Your probability of being shot, unless you are a gang member or part of a drug cartel, is about on par with your chance of falling off your roof and breaking something while putting up Christmas lights (your odds of being killed by nuclear power, even in Japan atm, are somewhat less than your odds of being hit by lighting). Guns definitely make the US have higher numbers of violent crimes and murders than in some other (more civilized I’m sure) countries…but, really, I think it’s AMERICANS, and the fact that we are one of the most diverse nations on earth that is the major factor. Take away the guns and the murder rate might go down a bit…but it wouldn’t be the peaceful paradise on earth that most anti-gun folks seem to assume. We have a can-do spirit, and I think that Americans would still find a way to kill each other off at similar (and higher absolute) rates than most other countries, with or without guns. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/23 "2012-12-09T17:52:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > …but sometimes it slips out even by the non-loony ones, as (assuming the quote is true) in the OPs example of Obama saying something similar. Really?? Forgive me but I doubt that. Anyone I’ve ever met would laugh someone out of the room if they talked like the OP’s hypothetical. As for Obama’s quote, one ambiguous line from a 2008 campaign speech has not since translated into any other policy statements or legislative action (or resurfaced in any other way) so to assert that he shares the views in the OP is very odd to say the least. (though I’ll grant that Clint Eastwood’s invisible Obama may have said it) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/24 "2012-12-09T17:58:55Z")
[QUOTE=LC Strawhouse] Really?? Forgive me but I doubt that. Anyone I’ve ever met who talked like the OP’s hypothetical would get laughed out of the room. [/QUOTE] To paraphrase: ‘But no one I know voted for Nixon, so it’s impossible that he won!!’ 😛 If you’ve never heard folks say nutty stuff, you need to get out more…or, hell, just go on Fox news for a couple of hours and listen to what they are spewing. > [@](#): > > As for Obama’s quote, one ambiguous line from a 2008 campaign speech has not since translated into any other policy statements or legislative action (or resurfaced in any other way) so to assert that he shares the views in the OP is very odd to say the least. (though I’ll grant that Clint Eastwood’s invisible Obama may have said it) Just going by what the OP said…don’t know the providence of the quote, but it shows a certain mindset about guns that I HAVE seen quite often by some liberals. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/25 "2012-12-09T18:12:30Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > True. I think Europeans may underestimate, however, how fundamentally many Americans really do believe they’re going to need those guns against a fascist government someday. We got distracted there for a few decades by people talking about deer hunting with an Uzi, but Facebook has revealed much to me - it’s not about wanting to hunt, it’s about wanting to keep up in the arms race with our own government in case they come for our wives and children in the middle of the night. I’m really not sure \*why \*we seem to distrust our government, the one that we elected, so much more fiercely than other countries seem to (and at the same time, we want to bring this form of government to other nations. It’s weird.) Where are the privately owned Minuteman missiles. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/26 "2012-12-09T18:14:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > To paraphrase: ‘But no one I know voted for Nixon, so it’s impossible that he won!!’ 😛 If you’ve never heard folks say nutty stuff, you need to get out more…or, hell, just go on Fox news for a couple of hours and listen to what they are spewing. Sure, we’ve all met a few embittered old men and earnestly foolish college freshmen, but I can’t fathom that this is a common belief with any traction whatsoever. It’s probably much easier to find a believer in lizard people overlords to find someone who talks about guns in that Marxist-via-Austin Powers way. I mean, nobody here is jumping in to agree with the OP’s hypothetical, and this is a “liberal board”, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/27 "2012-12-09T18:32:10Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Sure, we’ve all met a few embittered old men and earnestly foolish college freshmen, but I can’t fathom that this is a common belief with any traction whatsoever. It’s probably much easier to find a believer in lizard people overlords to find someone who talks about guns in that Marxist-via-Austin Powers way. > > I mean, nobody here is jumping in to agree with the OP’s hypothetical, and this is a “liberal board”, right? 🙂 It’s definitely a left leaning board, by US standards…but it’s not a bat shit crazy left leaning board. 😉 Which is why I said I agreed that while some folks do think that way and it’s not a complete fabrication, that most anti-gun folks don’t see that as the primary (or hell even on the list) reason they feel as they do. That said, it’s not at ‘lizard people overlords’ ridiculous level though…it’s closer to main stream than that among some circles of lefties or some more radical minority types (as I said, I’ve mostly heard this sentiment among the more radical Native Americans and some Hispanics I know). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/28 "2012-12-09T18:32:44Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Where are the privately owned Minuteman missiles. Ask [this guy](http://www.interestingprojects.com/). (Actually, I have no idea what a Minuteman missile is. But at least one guy does claim to have/had a privately owned missile. Not sure what his motivation was…) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/29 "2012-12-09T18:36:05Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ask [this guy](http://www.interestingprojects.com/). > > (Actually, I have no idea what a Minuteman missile is. But at least one guy does claim to have/had a privately owned missile. Not sure what his motivation was…) It’s an intercontinental ballistic missile, and I doubt he has one…certainly, not an armed and ready to fly one. I know you can buy some of the old missile silos though…some folks have done that as Armageddon shelters for when the Mayans come to kill us all in another couple of weeks, or for when some other civilizations ending disaster strikes…or, maybe just as a really dark and musky place to have a good vacation house. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/30 "2012-12-09T18:39:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It’s an intercontinental ballistic missile, and I doubt he has one…certainly, not an armed and ready to fly one. I know you can buy some of the old missile silos though…some folks have done that as Armageddon shelters for when the Mayans come to kill us all in another couple of weeks, or for when some other civilizations ending disaster strikes…or, maybe just as a really dark and musky place to have a good vacation house. 😉 I’d be temped to buy a missile silo just to have somewhere the kids couldn’t knock on the door while I’m in the bathroom…😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/31 "2012-12-09T18:48:32Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’ll wait to see if anyone else chimes in but if the OP is a strawman, my apologies. Just thought I’d put it out there. Please consider post #2 a “chime” if you haven’t already. ---
**Author:** ![gms453](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@gms453](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gms453)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/32 "2012-12-09T20:27:51Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I dunno, I’ve had a middle aged black man with mostly white friends and white girlfriends tell me to my face that “people of color” lived in peace and harmony with each other and with nature until “the white man” taught them how to lie and steal and kill each other. :eek: If he’d have been an anti-gunner, I could see this argument being part of his repertois. Did the words “scapegoating”, “whipping boy” or “delusional” ever come up in your conversation with him? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/33 "2012-12-09T22:17:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > True. I think Europeans may underestimate, however, how fundamentally many Americans really do believe they’re going to need those guns against a fascist government someday. We got distracted there for a few decades by people talking about deer hunting with an Uzi, but Facebook has revealed much to me - it’s not about wanting to hunt, it’s about wanting to keep up in the arms race with our own government in case they come for our wives and children in the middle of the night. I’m really not sure \*why \*we seem to distrust our government, the one that we elected, so much more fiercely than other countries seem to (and at the same time, we want to bring this form of government to other nations. It’s weird.) That hasn’t been my experience. There may be people who speak about gun ownership in political terms but I think they’re just a vocal fringe. Most of the gun owners I know personally (discounting hunters) see self-protection as their main motive. They feel that owning and carrying a gun gives them the means to defend themselves against a possible crime attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/34 "2012-12-09T23:14:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sure if you look hard enough on the internet you can find someone who believes that cockroaches are spy robots from the planet Altair 6. > > That doesn’t mean it’s a remotely mainstream view. > > Perhaps the OP could get us to take his rant a little more seriously by providing a prominent person who expressed such beliefs. I applaud his efficiency. Ordinarily, the strawman-erector has to wait for his opponent to make a statement before mischaracterizing the position. Here **Lumpy** has cut out the middleman, delivering (farcically) underhanded rhetoric to us directly! ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/35 "2012-12-10T01:09:15Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ask [this guy](http://www.interestingprojects.com/). > > (Actually, I have no idea what a Minuteman missile is. But at least one guy does claim to have/had a privately owned missile. Not sure what his motivation was…) Attention whoring? If you follow the links, he’s a [New Zealander](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/05/1054700308768.html). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/36 "2012-12-10T03:31:49Z")
redacted… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470/37 "2012-12-10T10:52:36Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > (Because we don’t have enough gun debate threads yet. :p) > > Although those who favor gun control usually couch it in terms of public safety, I think there’s at least in part another agenda that is often implicit and sometimes explicit: that progressive leftists see gun possession as a part of a sociological mindset that they are fiercely determined to stamp out. Can’t say I’ve so much as encountered this attitude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-are-the-white-mans-tools-of-oppression/643470.md?page=1)