# Guns as "protection". (From the Government) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047 "2008-11-30T14:12:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/81 "2008-12-01T03:31:08Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > To summarise **Charogne** ’s post: > > 1. Hitler was democratically elected. > 2. **Charogne** wants his government to have the advantage in weaponry. > > Therefore, just because the government is democratically elected, doesn’t ensure that they aren’t a bunch of pricks who are going to throw you under the bus. Oh, I see. Makes much more sense that way. I think his point is that the government is now protecting him from those people- which is a bit extreme, but not entirely crazy- and the government is much less likely to start wanting to throw him under the bus than those people. Personally, I believe armed resistance against our government is the most laughable concept imaginable, and recent history- Waco and the siege at Ruby Creek\*- bears this out. \*Neither Randy Weaver nor his kids believe they can beat the government, and they’re pretty much the only people I can think of who tried. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/82 "2008-12-01T03:34:06Z")
Ruby Ridge, FTR. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/83 "2008-12-01T03:42:31Z")
Actually, “Ruby Creek” is an accurate name – the actual location of the standoff was between Ruby Creek and Caribou Ridge; the name “Ruby Ridge” is just a popular combination of the two placenames. At least, that’s what the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge) says. And **RNATB** , of _course_ “resistance” of the “get completely surrouned in a small building or compound and slug it out with a vastly larger and better-armed force” variety will fail, and fail pathetically. That’s not really relevant to the discussion, though. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/84 "2008-12-01T03:53:43Z")
I personally want to thank the Right Wingers for saving the USA from tyranny. Before this thread I always thought that the Liberals were the ones who made sure that blacks, women, and gays had civil rights and that we didn’t decend into facism with a few large corporations working hand-in-hand with the government to control power. But all along the Right Wing gun owners were the ones looking out for me. I think I may just give up peaceful demonstration and voting and just let you all keep up the good work. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/85 "2008-12-01T03:55:25Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Actually, “Ruby Creek” is an accurate name – the actual location of the standoff was between Ruby Creek and Caribou Ridge; the name “Ruby Ridge” is just a popular combination of the two placenames. At least, that’s what the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge) says. Indeed. There’s no such place as “Ruby Ridge”. > [@](#): > > And **RNATB** , of _course_ “resistance” of the “get completely surrouned in a small building or compound and slug it out with a vastly larger and better-armed force” variety will fail, and fail pathetically. That’s not really relevant to the discussion, though. Why not? Since we’re not likely to be invaded, we’re talking about resistance against an entrenched government, and it’s highly unlikely that everyone who was up for it would start actively resisting at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/86 "2008-12-01T03:57:26Z")
> [@Charogne](#): > > Actually, Ex-Tank, that’s a really good point, and an inconsistency I ought address. (I’m surprised you could rebut me so effectively with all the Wite-Out on your monitor… but that’s another discussion altogether). Well. Things were going swimmingly so far. So what gives with the insults? I know it’s Da Pit and all, but…if you feel so fucking strong about it dickhead, why don’t you fucking man-up and get your sackless self over to Great Debates, where you can’t descend to the level of name-calling and insults. Where, you know, you have to talk and reason. _Like an adult_. And the next time you associate _my_ name with racism, homophobia, or religious intolerance, you’d better back it up with a fucking valid cite. Becuase that’s going beyond name calling; that calumny. > [@Charogne](#): > > Should the government overthrow all the Constitutional checks on the will of the majority enshrined in the Bill of Rights, I don’t look for you and your inbred confreres to bolt out with musket and hatchet in hand in an elitist revolution to put things right. Like Der Trihs, I don’t see fascism coming to America without a groundswell of popular support from the perpetually disgruntled white working-class (from which I’m sprung). A valid proposition, I grant (and have before, and will again..) Another: what is colloquially knows as “the froggy in the pot o’ water.” Toss a frog in a pot of hot water, and he jumps right back out. Toss him in a pan of warm water, and then turn up the heat. Pretty soon, you got one cooked froggy. It’s an old saying, I know, but apt for the point I wish to illustrate, to whit: The gradual erosion of liberties can also pose a threat to the “Constitutional checks on the will of the majority enshrined in the Bill of Rights” you say you hold so dear. Then: given 74 years of progressively stricter gun control, so much so that the individual right had, until recently, been interpreted right out of the 2nd. Ad. by “the majority” of legal scholars, federal judges, and Democratic legislators, do you not also see the parallel dangers posed to all other Constitutionally protected rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights? > [@Charogne](#): > > You see yourself as a potential Minuteman – very well. I see you as a potential Brownshirt, but I’m willing to hear your testimony to the contrary. Fuck you. I have nothing to prove to you. Ooooh! Ooooh! I know! Just like **Der Trihs** and his ilk, you’re going to claim that since I didn’t prove to _your_ satisfaction that I wasn’t a potential Nazi, ipso facto, _I am!_ IOW: Yes, I have not stopped beating my wife. > [@Charogne](#): > > At any rate, one thing we seem to agree on is that it’s not the fault of the gun per se – it’s a tool. But for whatever reason, it’s a tool that seems to attract the bottom feeders, whether they be the noble-hearted man-child Airman Doors, or the stunt-double for Francis-in-“Stripes” Scumpup. Can’t speak for you, but I don’t trust either Dudley Do-Right or the poor man’s Wolverine as a guardian for my liberty or safety. Well who in the blue fuck asked you to? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/87 "2008-12-01T04:00:05Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > **Really Not All That Bright:** In spite of the easy target your username represents, I know you have better reading comprehension skills than that. > > So, what’s you angle? > > Deliberately obtuse? What? I think you’re giving me too much credit. I totally misread his post originally. See my reply to Grumman, and accept my apology. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/88 "2008-12-01T04:13:18Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Another: what is colloquially knows as “the froggy in the pot o’ water.” > > Toss a frog in a pot of hot water, and he jumps right back out. Toss him in a pan of warm water, and then turn up the heat. Pretty soon, you got one cooked froggy. > > It’s an old saying, I know, but apt for the point I wish to illustrate, to whit: > > The gradual erosion of liberties can also pose a threat to the “Constitutional checks on the will of the majority enshrined in the Bill of Rights” you say you hold so dear. > > Then: given 74 years of progressively stricter gun control, so much so that the individual right had, until recently, been interpreted right out of the 2nd. Ad. by “the majority” of legal scholars, federal judges, and Democratic legislators, do you not also see the parallel dangers posed to all other Constitutionally protected rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights? But there’s the problem; support for gun rights is a major part of what’s eroding civil rights. The gun righters will cheerfully vote for people who want to restrict free speech or spy on American citizens or shove their religion down other people’s throats, as long as the people they vote for pander to their gun fetish. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/89 "2008-12-01T04:16:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But there’s the problem; support for gun rights is a major part of what’s eroding civil rights. The gun righters will cheerfully vote for people who want to restrict free speech or spy on American citizens or shove their religion down other people’s throats, as long as the people they vote for pander to their gun fetish. Since you love to swing a broad brush, why don’t you come around and paint my house? It doesn’t really need it, but I feel that people with, _:ahem:_ “different abilities,” should really stick to what they’re best at. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/90 "2008-12-01T04:19:42Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I personally want to thank the Right Wingers for saving the USA from tyranny. Before this thread I always thought that the Liberals were the ones who made sure that blacks, women, and gays had civil rights and that we didn’t decend into facism with a few large corporations working hand-in-hand with the government to control power. But all along the Right Wing gun owners were the ones looking out for me. I think I may just give up peaceful demonstration and voting and just let you all keep up the good work. Gay people being able to marry _and_ own guns? [Preposterous!](http://www.pinkpistols.org) We all know it’s impossible for someone to believe in _all_ of the human rights protected in the Constitution, right **Dan**? I wonder how a political party that didn’t attack any human’s rights would perform. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/91 "2008-12-01T04:20:55Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > I wonder how a political party that didn’t attack any human’s rights would perform. Who’d vote for _that_ bunch of pansies? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/92 "2008-12-01T04:21:30Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > The idea that we’d just turn around fire on our own citizens in the blink of an eye is ridiculous. It would have to be the Apocalypse or something before something like that happened. Waco Siege. Check it out. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/93 "2008-12-01T04:22:18Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I personally want to thank the Right Wingers for saving the USA from tyranny. You do realize that many left wingers own guns, right? And support the 2nd amendment as interpreted by the SCOTUS? And vote Democrat? And belong to the ACLU? > [@Sailboat](#): > > Keegan identifies at the moment of D-Day 300 German divisions in existence and fewer than 20 of them had any anti-resistance duties…almost all of those twenty were third-rate or special-purpose formations of dubious military value. So partisans tied up almost 10% of German troops in the theater, and despite those soldiers’ lack of skills, they could have otherwise been used to garrison points or serve as cannon fodder or clean latrines, thus freeing up other troops. And despite the fact that the partisans themselves proved crucial in ensuring that D Day _happened_… the power of resistance is a myth. Of course, I assume, Iraq is also a myth and we’re in complete and total control of the country and have been, for years. Likewise, America is a British colony to this day. But, of course, Keegan is also an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War itself. I’m not sure how that plays into an appeal to authority, but ah well, eh? Maybe I can answer your scorn by, perhaps, citing John Keegan. [ > [@](#): > > Mr. Bremer’s prime mistakes, according to Mr. Ricks, were to disband the Iraqi army and to bar former members of the Baath party from positions in government. Disbanding the army released tens of thousands of trained fighters into unemployment; barring Baathists from administrative positions robbed the new governing coalition of the service of the very people it needed to restore order and good government. These mistakes, Mr. Ricks thinks, ensured that the initial failure of the occupation would persist and worsen. > > Few would disagree with the analysis in “Fiasco.” It is not, however, a complete explanation of what went wrong. Mr. Ricks makes several convincing points about what underlay the insurgency, notably the supreme importance of the value of respect for personal dignity in Arab society. He notes how, at least in the early stages of the occupation, American forces too often showed unconcern for Iraqi dignity–by performing too many tasks and conducting too many operations unilaterally. But he does not take account of what may underlie the whole insurgency, which is the rise of Islamic militancy across the Muslim world. > > America was so certain that what it had to offer–modern government in an incorrupt and democratic form–was so obviously desirable that it failed altogether to understand that the Iraqis wanted something else, which is self-government in an Islamic form. It is too late now to start again. > > All that can be hoped is that the U.S. Army will prevail in its counterinsurgency and, as Mr. Ricks’s gripping accounts of the troops in action suggest, it may still. His description of Marines “attacking into an ambush” leaves one in no doubt that American soldiers know combat secrets that their enemies do not and cannot match. Whether pure military skills will win the war, however, cannot be predicted. ]([http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110008800](http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110008800)) Damn, sounds like in 2006 he thought that a modern insurgency, using RPG’s and IED’s, had a chance of defeating the single greatest military superpower that the world has ever seen. I wonder what the John Keegan who you tell us says that the mythology and propaganda of resistance has inflated our belief in its effectiveness would say to the John Keegan who says that resistance can defeat a military superpower. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/94 "2008-12-01T04:23:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But there’s the problem; support for gun rights is a major part of what’s eroding civil rights. The gun righters will cheerfully vote for people who want to restrict free speech or spy on American citizens or shove their religion down other people’s throats, as long as the people they vote for pander to their gun fetish. **Der Trihs** , how about we flip that little nugget of wisdom around? Instead of blaming the people who support gun rights for voting for conservative politicians, why don’t you blame the liberal politicians for not supporting gun rights? But it’s complete and utter bullshit either way, and you should be smart enough to know it. Gun rights aren’t eroding the rest of our civil liberties: fearmongering politicians are, and they are aided by the nervous idiots who follow them (whether or not they own guns). The fact that gun rights is an issue that often drives voters into the arms of the Republican party seems to me like just another opportunity being passed on by the supposedly enlightened and liberal Democratic party. But no – they’re too spineless or else scheming to deign to support _all_ our civil liberties. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/95 "2008-12-01T04:36:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Who’d vote for _that_ bunch of pansies? I know. Rights _and responsibilities_? Fuck that noise. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/96 "2008-12-01T04:41:11Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Waco Siege. Check it out. What happened to that husband and wife couple that were convicted of tax evasion and kept insisting they wouldn’t be taken alive? Happened a couple summer ago, big story was something about some guy out walking his dog interrupting the police right as they were about to storm the compound. I assume they’re either still at it or it was resolved without a lot of shooting. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/97 "2008-12-01T04:56:19Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Actually, “Ruby Creek” is an accurate name Cool, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/98 "2008-12-01T05:01:30Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Read up on how the Roman Republic evolved into the Roman Empire, and how the Militia of citizens was gradually replaced by the Legions. The process takes about 250 years and goes something like this: The time between the period of the kings and the birth of the Empire was about 450 years. It also didn’t really happen the way you’ve laid out. And am I the only one who’s tired of facile comparisons between ancient Rome and the modern US? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/99 "2008-12-01T05:30:14Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Yes. Why is it silly? > > Had every Jew in Germany had a gun, how many storm-troopers would have died before they found easier people to pick on? Not many, and they wouldn’t have moved on to anyone else. Thousands? Try ten, maybe fifteen. Not ten or fifteen thousand; just ten or fifteen. If that. The Holocaust didn’t happen the way you seem to think it did. It was a gradual process at a national, industrial level that was supported by the bulk of the population. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047/100 "2008-12-01T05:39:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Not many, and they wouldn’t have moved on to anyone else. Thousands? Try ten, maybe fifteen. Not ten or fifteen thousand; just ten or fifteen. If that. > > The Holocaust didn’t happen the way you seem to think it did. It was a gradual process at a national, industrial level that was supported by the bulk of the population. Well, according to the official Nazi party line, it was only 16. Do you really believe it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-as-protection-from-the-government/475047.md?page=6)