# Guns facilitate suicide. Do you care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064 "2008-07-11T00:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ossity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@ossity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ossity)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/1 "2008-07-11T00:38:46Z")
Rather a pushy thread title, I grant, but I just read this article which confirms something I’ve wondered: [The Urge to End It](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin): > [@](#): > > Even though guns account for less than 1 percent of all American suicide attempts, their extreme fatality rate — anywhere from 85 percent and 92 percent, depending on how the statistics are compiled — means that they account for 54 percent of all completions. In 2005, the last year for which statistics are available, that translated into about 17,000 deaths. Public-health officials like Hemenway can point to a mountain of research going back 40 years that shows that the incidence of firearm suicide runs in close parallel with the prevalence of firearms in a community. In a 2007 study that grouped the 15 states with the highest rate of gun ownership alongside the six states with the lowest (each group had a population of about 40 million), Hemenway and his associates found that when it came to all nonfirearm methods, the two populations committed suicide in nearly equal numbers. The more than three-times-greater prevalence of firearms in the “high gun” states, however, translated into a more than three-times-greater incidence of firearm suicides, which in turn translated into an annual suicide rate nearly double that of the “low gun” states. It makes sense to me. The gun is an “easy” way to suicide: it’s effective, doesn’t require extensive training for the purpose, isn’t as hard to lay hands on as prescription drugs, doesn’t require that you find a whopping tall building or bridge, etc. It’s the democratic suicide tool. So the impulsive suicide grabs the gun and dies where if the gun weren’t there that same suicide has a good chance of not dying. That being said, do you care? Does this change anything for you? For me, though I am passively pro-gun (meaning I don’t have one but don’t care if you have eleventy-three of them all dangling from your belt) it makes me even more leery of having one in my house. I don’t think I’m suicidal, but I’m hella impulsive. Teens are even more impulsive than I am. I don’t think I would ever have a gun in a house where a teen lived. I hope this isn’t a stupid great debate. You should have a forum for “Probably not all that great a debate but better than a stick in the eye. Slightly”. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/2 "2008-07-11T00:49:31Z")
[QUOTE=ossity] That being said, do you care? Does this change anything for you? For me, though I am passively pro-gun (meaning I don’t have one but don’t care if you have eleventy-three of them all dangling from your belt) it makes me even more leery of having one in my house. I don’t think I’m suicidal, but I’m hella impulsive [/QUOTE] Yep. This is pretty much how I feel. I’m in favor of gun ownership for the licensed (& even concealed carry licenses), so long as it’s nice remote theory. I personally don’t own a gun & probably never will. I have a sort of spacy, impulsive personality, prone to (once in a blue moon) suddenly firing at something for no good reason at all. I think a crossbow (still very deadly, but slightly more effort to fire) is as deadly as I want to get in things I would own. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/3 "2008-07-11T00:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=ossity] It makes sense to me. The gun is an “easy” way to suicide: it’s effective, doesn’t require extensive training for the purpose, isn’t as hard to lay hands on as prescription drugs, doesn’t require that you find a whopping tall building or bridge, etc. It’s the democratic suicide tool. So the impulsive suicide grabs the gun and dies where if the gun weren’t there that same suicide has a good chance of not dying. [/QUOTE] So are you anti-gun, anti-suicide , or anti- civil liberties. Some people are born bent, at some point in their lives they will commit suicide, regardless of the method. Removing firearms will reduce their options by one tool. So , hypothetically you have removed all firearms from the world , is your crusade finished or are knives next , then the automobile , then the pills, then we take out bridges, etc. But no , the above is not going to happen for a variety of reasons, so we do the next best thing , we remove your kid from circulation, put him/her in rubber room and fill em full of some anti depressant at the first sign of suicidal tendencys. Sort of a gitmo for the darwins. No your idea idoes not give a good enough bang for the buck, and the amount of suicides that it may **Delay** will only take place in a future time period with another method. Declan ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/4 "2008-07-11T00:55:13Z")
I own a hand gun and would not use it for suicide\* for the simple reason that my Darling Marcie would have to view my body for identification purposes and I wouldn’t put her through that experience. \*Premeditated suicide, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/5 "2008-07-11T01:01:52Z")
[QUOTE=LouisB] I own a hand gun and would not use it for suicide\* for the simple reason that my Darling Marcie would have to view my body for identification purposes and I wouldn’t put her through that experience. \*Premeditated suicide, obviously. [/QUOTE] I’m not married, and when/if the day comes when I must commit suicide it will be with a handgun, and there will be a sign on the door reading, “DO NOT ENTER. CALL POLICE.” Would it be better for Marcie to wait at your side begging the nurse’s aids to give you one more morphine patch for your colon cancer? ---
**Author:** ![ossity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@ossity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ossity)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/6 "2008-07-11T01:02:45Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] Some people are born bent, at some point in their lives they will commit suicide, regardless of the method. Removing firearms will reduce their options by one tool. [/QUOTE] I realize that I’m quite new, so tell me now if it’s traditional neither to read the initial post nor the link provided. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/7 "2008-07-11T01:03:43Z")
[QUOTE=ossity] I realize that I’m quite new, so tell me now if it’s traditional neither to read the initial post nor the link provided. [/QUOTE] Or maybe having someone thats a first cousin, use a shotgun to remove his head ? Whats your story. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/8 "2008-07-11T01:04:44Z")
[QUOTE=ossity] I realize that I’m quite new, so tell me now if it’s traditional neither to read the initial post nor the link provided. [/QUOTE] Oh, yeah, re the OP: Everyone in the world has the ultimate right to take themselves out of the world. **Guns facilitate suicide. Do you care?** No. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/9 "2008-07-11T01:05:46Z")
I only care in the sense that I’m glad that there’s a method that works well and is legally available. My only problem with it is that there’s no legal option for suicide that doesn’t leave your body waiting to be found by relatives. Ideally you’d be able to go to a hospital and have it done in a way that facilitated all the various after-the-fact issues of body disposal, certainty that it wasn’t a staged murder, etc. Freedom to live your life equals the freedom to end it. Christian morality needs to piss off out of public morality where there’s no real world reason to feel affected. ---
**Author:** ![ossity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@ossity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ossity)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/10 "2008-07-11T01:06:24Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] I have a sort of spacy, impulsive personality, prone to (once in a blue moon) suddenly firing at something for no good reason at all. I think a crossbow (still very deadly, but slightly more effort to fire) is as deadly as I want to get in things I would own. [/QUOTE] I confessed at university to a mandatory adviser that I often thought about driving off a bridge or “What would happen if I jumped in front of that bus?” She told me that was normal and not a true suicidal ideation, but it still freaked me out. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/11 "2008-07-11T01:06:43Z")
Personal ownership of a firearm in Japan is against the law, but… [from here](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FG28Dh01.html) > [@](#): > > Japanese suicide rates have been high since 1998, when a surge in bankruptcies and unemployment generated a big upswing in people taking their lives for financial reasons. In the decade leading up to 1997, the number of people who killed themselves hovered in a relatively low range of between 15,000 and 25,000 a year. In 1998, suicide broke the 30,000 threshold and has remained high ever since. As for the OP, it’s a bitch for those left to pick up the pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/12 "2008-07-11T01:08:49Z")
I can’t say that I do care. Suicide, while tragic, is a choice, not an accident. There are other ways to kill yourself much more painfully than a firearm. So, if the choice is quick and sure or slow and painful, pulling the trigger is far better, if not at all pleasant for those that are left behind. ---
**Author:** ![ossity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@ossity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ossity)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/13 "2008-07-11T01:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] Or maybe having someone thats a first cousin, use a shotgun to remove his head ? Whats your story. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry to hear about your cousin. ---
**Author:** ![ossity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@ossity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ossity)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/14 "2008-07-11T01:13:28Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] I can’t say that I do care. Suicide, while tragic, is a choice, not an accident. There are other ways to kill yourself much more painfully than a firearm. So, if the choice is quick and sure or slow and painful, pulling the trigger is far better, if not at all pleasant for those that are left behind. [/QUOTE] In the article, it seems clear that those are not the only choices and that the availability of firearms in effect causes suicides amongst those who would likely not otherwise die. The article debunks the idea that people will simply substitute another method. They might, but there _appears to be a significant chance that they will not_. I feel as if people are arguing things that I have not said and the article has not said. Perhaps a stick in the eye would have been a bit better. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/15 "2008-07-11T01:22:46Z")
[QUOTE=ossity] I’m sorry to hear about your cousin. [/QUOTE] The thing to remember about darwins , is that its not hard to treat them, its identifying them. So far that I have seen, there are three types of suicides , this based on no particular study that I know of , but… One is a romantic suicide, bunch of kids get together and form a sucide pact Second is an individual who has either suffered a loss financially or whatever ,and is normally sane person , the french had a saying about blood forgives sins or something like that. You see it on tv where somebody is offered a pistol and some quiet time. Third is an individual who shows no outward signs of being a darwin, captain of school teams, hot girlfriend, popular in school, yada yada. My cousin was the third type , we never seen it coming. So objectively he was a time bomb waiting to go off. If it was not a shotgun , then it would have been something else. Your post struck me as being Anti-gun, remove the weapons and we may save just one child. Your thread title was clear as day , but your message needed clarity regarding what you propose to do about it, or put to proposal. Declan ---
**Author:** ![ossity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@ossity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ossity)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/16 "2008-07-11T01:27:57Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] My cousin was the third type , we never seen it coming. So objectively he was a time bomb waiting to go off. If it was not a shotgun , then it would have been something else. [/QUOTE] The statistics quoted in the article do not appear to support your conclusion. In fact, they contradict your conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/17 "2008-07-11T01:28:04Z")
[QUOTE=ossity] In the article, it seems clear that those are not the only choices and that the availability of firearms in effect causes suicides amongst those who would likely not otherwise die. The article debunks the idea that people will simply substitute another method. They might, but there _appears to be a significant chance that they will not_. [/QUOTE] I’m not seeing why we should want to preserve the lives of lazy suicidal people? Overall, why should I care if people are more likely to kill themselves if it is an easy and painless thing to do? Do we need more people on the planet? Is there some holistic reason that it’s bad for dead people to come into existence? ---
**Author:** ![ossity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@ossity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ossity)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/18 "2008-07-11T01:41:34Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Is there some holistic reason that it’s bad for dead people to come into existence? [/QUOTE] Any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. Some suicides are needful things. Some are not. Those that aren’t break my heart. (Those that are but are prevented also break my heart, but that is not the point of the post.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/19 "2008-07-11T01:47:29Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] The thing to remember about darwins , is that its not hard to treat them, its identifying them. [/quote] It is very hard for me to keep from using Pit-worthy language in this response. I’ve deleted several responses that would rightly get me suspended. Please do not refer to persons who commit suicide as “darwins.” Please do not imply that people who suffer from grief or illness to such a degree that death comes to seem preferable have done the gene pool a favor by removing themselves from it. Please consider that doing so is hurtful, callous, ignorant, and vile. Please consider the implications of what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064/20 "2008-07-11T01:50:08Z")
[QUOTE=ossity] The statistics quoted in the article do not appear to support your conclusion. In fact, they contradict your conclusion. [/QUOTE] I have to say that given your OP and the forum, I’ve been rather amazed by the ability of posters to come in and simply throw out an opinion and then support that opinion by making unsupported statements rather succinctly contradicted by what you’ve provided. Anyway, I’m a bit divided on the subject. I think the Supreme Court was correct in its most recent interpretation of citizens having fairly broad rights to obtain and own firearms. From a legal stand-point, I’m generally in support of gun rights. From a public health perspective, I absolutely believe that we should do everything we can to reduce gun ownership. I think that medical professionals and others in a position to deliver public health messages (teachers, etc.) ought to actively discourage gun ownership. I don’t proclaim to know how to reconcile the two views from a legislative standpoint. Perhaps we could do more to tax firearms and spend the revenues on suicide prevention? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-facilitate-suicide-do-you-care/456064.md?page=2)