# guns fired into the air **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 4, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280 "2002-07-04T00:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tekgraf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@tekgraf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tekgraf)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/1 "2002-07-04T00:11:34Z")
You often hear warnings about firing guns straight into the air. The danger stated seems to be that it could kill someone coming down. I question whether this is true. Is the terminal velocity of a cartridge fired straight up and then coming down, sufficient to penetrate a human skull or any other part? I hope someone with a physics background can calculate how high the bullet would go before zeroing out and falling back to earth and at what velocity. Then a ballistics expert could say whether that in fact could kill anyone:confused: ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/2 "2002-07-04T00:39:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tekgraf \* > You often hear warnings about firing guns straight into the air. The danger stated seems to be that it could kill someone coming down. I question whether this is true. Is the terminal velocity of a cartridge fired straight up and then coming down, sufficient to penetrate a human skull or any other part? > \*\* My WAG but I would guess that the terminal velocity of a bullet is fairly high. They have a small x-sectional area and are aerodynamically designed to move quickly through the air. Forgetting wind resistance for a second, the bullet will travel upward, decelerating at about 32 ft/s/s until it reaches its zero velocity. It will then accelerate downward at 32 ft/s/s until it hits its terminal velocity or a human skull. (32 ft/s/s or 9.8 m/s/s is acceleration due to gravity). I suspect that wind resistance would be negligable somy guess is yes. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/3 "2002-07-04T00:57:14Z")
A sort-of related thread is available [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10021) ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/4 "2002-07-04T01:25:21Z")
A few years back as New Year’s Eve approached, National Public Radio aired a report on the problem of cretins firing guns into the air at Midnight. I distinctly recall that it was said this was a particular problem in California, with it not being uncommon for several fatalities to occur in a given year. ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/5 "2002-07-04T01:40:30Z")
Unsurprisingly, Cecil has the scoop on [Can a bullet fired into the air kill someone when it comes down?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html). It has the potential to be fatal. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/6 "2002-07-04T02:07:46Z")
My little brother shot a 30.06 through the roof of our mothers house when he was about 12. The bullet exited the roof and about 30 seconds later the bullet came back down through the roof. When fire, he was in a second floor bedroom, the bullet came back down about 12 feet away, went through the roof, ceiling, second floor/first floor ceiling and lodged in a phone in the kitchen. The phone worked just fine despite the hole in the top and was used for many more years. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/7 "2002-07-04T03:14:29Z")
B-52’s used to drop whole loads of bullets with little fins on them over the jungle in VN. Not much lived on the floor of the jungle that was in the path of the dropped bullets. ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/8 "2002-07-04T04:50:33Z")
Can I see a cite for that GusNSpot? I’m interested in reading more about it, I don’t doubt you. ---
**Author:** ![DreamWorks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DreamWorks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreamWorks)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/9 "2002-07-04T05:05:27Z")
I’ve seen it. This is also the reason why police don’t fire warning shots anymore, because the bullets come down and liability is too much. Rarely does it happen that the bullet hits the shooter, but they frequently strike others. ---
**Author:** ![bbeaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@bbeaty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbeaty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/10 "2002-07-04T05:22:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Can I see a cite for that GusNSpot? I’m interested in reading more about it, I don’t doubt you. Years ago I had a handful of those things. They looked like little lead “bombs” with sharp steel fins on one end. I bought them from Jerryco (now [sciplus.com](http://sciplus.com)), and the catalog said they were dumped out of planes, I think during WWII. As for lethal bullets, I remember that this problem was discovered in the 1980s in LA. Some doctor saw a couple of injuries where people were shot in the top of the head. He wondered if this was from falling bullets (apparently lots of gunfire in LA), so he went through some hospital records. Apparantly there were many injuries and even deaths from people getting “shot in the top of the head” by unseen assailants. The explanation was obvious, but nobody had realized that it was so common. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/11 "2002-07-04T05:58:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > \*\*Can I see a cite for that GusNSpot? I’m interested in reading more about it, I don’t doubt you. \*\* I’ve got one, too. Imagine a tiny lead bomb, about an inch and half long, with razor-thin sheet metal fins. Nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/12 "2002-07-04T06:46:57Z")
In the absence of wind resistance, there is no “terminal velocity.” Falling objects keep speeding up until they hit something. An atmosphere limits the speed at which things fall; exactly what that limit is depends on weight, cross section, air density, etc. ---
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/13 "2002-07-04T14:33:48Z")
Many years ago, a woman in Akron, OH was killed by a bullet originating as a warning shot by a policeman. I know this story to be true, because the woman’s wake was taking place at a funeral home my dad was doing work for at the time. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/14 "2002-07-04T15:11:04Z")
From what I remember of my basic physics classes, the velocity of the bullet on the way down should equal the velocity when it was fired if we disregard wind resistance. Wind resistance seems to have a significant effect though. [http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm](http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm) > [@](#): > > In 1920 the U.S. Army Ordnance conducted a series of experiments to try and determine the velocity of falling bullets. The tests were performed from a platform in the middle of a lake near Miami, Florida. The platform was ten feet square and a thin sheet of armor plate was placed over the men firing the gun. The gun was held in a fixture that would allow the gun to be adjusted to bring the shots close to the platform. It was surmised that the sound of the falling bullets could be heard when they hit the water or the platform. They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds… > [@](#): > > Based on the results of these tests it was concluded that the bullet return velocity was about 300 f.p.s. For the 150 gr. bullet this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Earlier the Army had determined that, on the average, it required 60 foot pounds of energy to produce a disabling wound. Based on this information, a falling 150 gr. service bullet would not be lethal, although it could produce a serious wound. That’s an old unsophisticated study though. Not sure how modern improvements in bullets/testing methods have changed the situation. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/15 "2002-07-04T16:01:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DreamWorks \* > \*\*Rarely does it happen that the bullet hits the shooter, but they frequently strike others. \*\* Not to pick on you too much **DreamWorks** but this line finally inspired me to post. This is a big planet and for all of the probably hundreds of thousands of bullets discharged into the air a handful of them come down on a human being. This is hardly **frequently** I am amazed none of the folks much better at ballistics than myself haven’t pounced on this thread. IIRC Corolis force will not effect the \* vertical component\* of a vector but it will effect the horizontal component. So a given bullet will not land in the same spot but on the scale of a typical rifle bullet probably within 10m or so. Not my idea of a good place to stand. Even so a circle with a 10m radius has an area of roughly 300 square meters. Your body occupies about 1 of those square meters. So its not a good idea but at 300:1 odds its definitely betting odds that it wont hit you. So if Bubba drags out his huntin’ rifle to pop off a few celebratory rounds, because he heard Martha Stewart is going to jail, the chance of them falling on someone even in heavily populated areas is probably close to one in hundreds of thousands. Corolis is a major issue in long range artillery. The targeting solutions for even WWII era naval gunnery accounted for this to make their fire more accurate since with flight times of 10-15 seconds the shot could deviate as much as 30m from this. 30m is a big deal when you’re talking about hitting something thats only 20-30m wide. In the example cited below by CarnalK I would be willing to bet many of those bullets drifted much further than 30m. Although the article did cite 1% of them falling in rather close proximity it also noted > [@](#): > > Wind can have a dramatic effect on where a vertically fired bullet lands. A 5 mile per hour wind will displace the 150 gr. bullet about 365 ft based on the time it takes the bullet to make the round trip to earth. In addition the wind at ground level may be blowing in an entirely different direction than it is at 9,000 feet. It is no wonder that it is so difficult to determine where a falling bullet will land. Speed of falling bullets. For comparison, painball guns fire at muzzle velocities right about 300fps so yes falling bullets would hurt like hell and a portion of them will penetrate (since they are solid slugs not frangible paintballs) anyone who has taken a paintball hit at close range on bare skin can tell you 300fps is far from pleasant. A typical 9mm pistol bullet has a muzzle velocity of right around 1,000fps well over triple the amount of force behind that paintball, with a much higher surface to weight ratio. Those nifty little fin stabilzed bomblets (seen one but don’t own one) were so effective because they were dropped _en masse_ and they are _stabilized_ the fins keep them in optimum orientation for high terminal veloocity. A randomly fired bullet, especially near the peak of its flight where its velocity is very low, will be subject to alot of wind shifting and irregular resistance on its surface normally overcome by brute force in firing at shorter ranges. So with all of the millions of forces acting on the event in question, the chances of any given bullet fired into the air by a reveler actually seriously injuring someone is probably close to one in a million. Maybe we need an insurance actuary to figure out a policy that will only pay out for $100,000 only for being injured by falling bullets. I bet its dirt cheap:D ---
**Author:** ![PosterChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/16 "2002-07-04T17:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by_ \*\*drachillix \*\* > Not to pick on you too much **DreamWorks** but this line finally inspired me to post. This is a big planet and for all of the probably hundreds of thousands of bullets discharged into the air a handful of them come down on a human being. This is hardly **frequently** > \ > Even so a circle with a 10m radius has an area of roughly 300 square meters. Your body occupies about 1 of those square meters. So its not a good idea but at 300:1 odds its definitely betting odds that it wont hit you. So if Bubba drags out his huntin’ rifle to pop off a few celebratory rounds, because he heard Martha Stewart is going to jail, the chance of them falling on someone even in heavily populated areas is probably close to one in hundreds of thousands. > > Speed of falling bullets. > > For comparison, painball guns fire at muzzle velocities right about 300fps so yes falling bullets would hurt like hell and a portion of them will penetrate (since they are solid slugs not frangible paintballs) anyone who has taken a paintball hit at close range on bare skin can tell you 300fps is far from pleasant. A typical 9mm pistol bullet has a muzzle velocity of right around 1,000fps well over triple the amount of force behind that paintball, with a much higher surface to weight ratio. > \ > So with all of the millions of forces acting on the event in question, the chances of any given bullet fired into the air by a reveler actually seriously injuring someone is probably close to one in a million. Maybe we need an insurance actuary to figure out a policy that will only pay out for $100,000 only for being injured by falling bullets. I bet its dirt cheap:D Not to pick nits (well maybe, but without malice 😉 ) I think the bullet has a **lower** surface to weight ratio. I also think the 300:1 odds is a good (conservative) approximation of the odds of hitting a specific person, if you’re in a town square filled with a bunch of other yahoos, even if you were the only one firing, you might almost expect to hit someone. Bubba in his backyard is less likely to hit someone, but with all the Bubba’s out there, it wouldn’t be surprising to find that he did. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/17 "2002-07-04T20:18:06Z")
So what’s the _positive_ result from firing into the sky? Maybe that 1 in 300 will be an armed robber who would otherwise escape unscathed? :rolleyes: I sure don’t want to be the one clobbered by Cecil’s 2X4. I wonder how the neighbors of these guys vote on gun control issues. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/18 "2002-07-04T20:37:01Z")
I am reminded of the woman’s high heel pressures … (never mind, not a hi/jack) I got no site, just military experience, did ever think about proving or dis-proving, just part of the scene… Think dart - arrow - bullet - dust particles in space when closing speeds get high, will put holes in glass without cracking I have heard… No cite… just food for thought… ---
**Author:** ![tekgraf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@tekgraf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tekgraf)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/19 "2002-07-04T21:37:08Z")
I was kinda hoping someone would first do the calculation of how high the bullet would actually go fired straight up. I E muzzle velocity deceleratingat 32 ft/sec/sec etc Armed with this height and basic velocity formula; then determine velocity on impact or terminal velocity if that is achieved. This may answer the question w/o further speculation. If the terminal velocity is about 300 feet per second (and I don’t know that it is) I would guess that it might injur but would be unlikely to be fatal. The other part of this is the incredible odds against being hit by anything. Basic calculations of surface area of the bullet/ available area (defined even as a fifty meter circle)/ the area of ones head and shoulders as exposed from above would seem to dictate that millions and millions of bullets would have to be fired to account for the REPORTED accounts of these wounds. Any statisticians want to take a crack at the odds? Assume South Los Angeles (notorious for gunfire) as about one hundred square miles and the population as one million. One person for every 310 square yards approximately. Thats the size of a small house lot measuring 30 feet by 93 feet. The area of the body exposed to the overhead is no more than two square feet(one foot front to back and two feet wide). The chances of being in an affected area would then be about 2/2790 (size of body divided by size of yard. And this is just the random part. Now lets say that the instance of vertical gunshots per year is one thousand. I think you then one thousand by one million and multiply the result by 2/2790. This should then tell you the odds of a person being hit. It comes to one in 1,395,000. This statistic would tend to put the lie to claims of dozens of people being hit by vertical gunfire.Still higher than winning the lottery tho I wish someone better at numbers than I am would scope this out (or tell me I am fairly close! JP ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280/20 "2002-07-05T00:45:55Z")
I don’t think the important part of **tekgraf** ’s question is how many get hit, but what happens to those who are. (hit) What we need here is a cost/benefit analysis. Cost: One 2X4 on the head. Benefit: Zero. Simple, no? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-fired-into-the-air/117280.md?page=2)