# Guns in bars **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588 "2010-03-07T03:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/1 "2010-03-07T03:57:26Z")
Virginia has a concealed carry law. One of the provisions of the law says that you’re not allowed to carry a concealed weapon in bars or restaurants where alcohol is served. Just the other day, the Virginia General Assembly [just passed a bill](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/va_general_assembly_approves_b.html), that the governor is expected to sign, that will change the law. Under the new law, you’ll be allowed to carry your concealed weapon into the bar or restaurant, as long as you don’t drink while you’re in there. The bill passed the legislature the past two years, but the governor vetoed it each time. Now that we have Bob McDonnell as governor, though, he’s promised to sign it. It seems to me that this is a bad idea. It seems to me that it’s a bad idea to have armed people in such close proximity to alcohol. I know the law says that people carrying aren’t allowed to drink, but what are the chances that that’s going to be obeyed? It’s not really very enforceable, and it seems like it can also cause trouble for bartenders. If some drunk guy shoots the bar up, I can see lawsuits being filed against the bar and bartender saying, “It’s your fault because you served booze to the armed guy.” Now, I know gun control debates on this board tend to turn into “Guns are evil” vs. “Guns are great”, but I’d like that not to happen here, if that’s possible. Can we talk about the merits or lack thereof of this particular bill? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/2 "2010-03-07T04:05:42Z")
It strikes me as incredibly stupid. Guns and inhibition lowering intoxicants are a bad mix. And I agree that the “Oh, but you can’t actually drink” part will be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/3 "2010-03-07T04:09:19Z")
It’s legal in NH, and we are allowed to drink. I’m unaware of anyone here who thinks this is a problem, at least not enough to try and change it. I don’t think I’ve heard any more stories about shootings in bars than anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/4 "2010-03-07T04:19:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Virginia has a concealed carry law. One of the provisions of the law says that you’re not allowed to carry a concealed weapon in bars or restaurants where alcohol is served. > > Just the other day, the Virginia General Assembly [just passed a bill](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/va_general_assembly_approves_b.html), that the governor is expected to sign, that will change the law. Under the new law, you’ll be allowed to carry your concealed weapon into the bar or restaurant, as long as you don’t drink while you’re in there. The bill passed the legislature the past two years, but the governor vetoed it each time. Now that we have Bob McDonnell as governor, though, he’s promised to sign it. > > It seems to me that this is a bad idea. It seems to me that it’s a bad idea to have armed people in such close proximity to alcohol. I know the law says that people carrying aren’t allowed to drink, but what are the chances that that’s going to be obeyed? It’s not really very enforceable, and it seems like it can also cause trouble for bartenders. If some drunk guy shoots the bar up, I can see lawsuits being filed against the bar and bartender saying, “It’s your fault because you served booze to the armed guy.” > > Now, I know gun control debates on this board tend to turn into “Guns are evil” vs. “Guns are great”, but I’d like that not to happen here, if that’s possible. Can we talk about the merits or lack thereof of this particular bill? Under the current law, though, a person (with no permit required!!) may openly carry a weapon into a bar and drink. So the law requires that if a person who is carrying concealed wishes to eat dinner in a restaurant, he must switch to open carry. The law change is intended to fix that rather silly scenario. Why aren’t you in panic mode about the current law, which has for years permitted open carry in bars? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/5 "2010-03-07T04:21:58Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > It’s legal in NH, and we are allowed to drink. I’m unaware of anyone here who thinks this is a problem, at least not enough to try and change it. > > I don’t think I’ve heard any more stories about shootings in bars than anywhere else. Manchester is what? 100,000 people? Any other city there even close (Nashua maybe?)? I think in smaller towns it is probably not a big deal. I live in Chicago and I cannot imagine the trouble that could ensue in parts of it if people were allowed to have guns in bars. I have seen plenty of bar fights and adding weapons to the mix I cannot imagine as being a good thing. What is fine some places is not fine in all places. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/6 "2010-03-07T04:48:49Z")
Been the law here for decades no problems whatsoever. People in most states must live fairly upstanding lives just to be eligible to get their concealed carry permit. They already are the types that follow the law. They realize that if they are not supposed to drink while carrying, and they get caught doing so, their permit is gone and with it, any chance of getting it back. That is more likely than not, enough deterrent to make sure that it is not a problem. If this was going to be a problem in VA, it would already be a problem in AZ, IA, NH and everywhere else that it is currently allowed, which it is not. That is of course if you think the concealed carry citizens of VA are somehow precluded to breaking laws, more so than their peers in other locales. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/7 "2010-03-07T04:57:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It seems to me that this is a bad idea. It seems to me that it’s a bad idea to have armed people in such close proximity to alcohol. The majority of sit down family style restaurants sever alcohol. It seems very unreasonable to tell someone they can carry in public but then keep them out of Fuddruckers, Chilis, or The Olive Garden. > [@](#): > > I know the law says that people carrying aren’t allowed to drink, but what are the chances that that’s going to be obeyed? It’s not really very enforceable, and it seems like it can also cause trouble for bartenders. What makes you think people were obeying the law about staying out of restaurants that serve alcohol? It’s not like it was enforceable. > [@](#): > > If some drunk guy shoots the bar up, I can see lawsuits being filed against the bar and bartender saying, “It’s your fault because you served booze to the armed guy.” In all the states that issue CCW permits, has anything like this been a problem? Back in the 1990s when states started to make it easier to get a concealed carry permit the opposition cried that it was going to be the wild west. Your argument seems to be more of the same kind of alarmist sky-is-falling argument. In other words, I don’t think it’ll make a difference in violent crimes in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/8 "2010-03-07T05:06:17Z")
I lived in Washington DC from 1985 to 1990. At the time DC had the most restrictive handgun laws in the country. I saw more handguns in bars in DC at that time than I have ever seen in all the other bars in all the other places places I have ever lived. (I’m talking like 40 handguns over 5 years, not to mention the shotguns bartenders had under the counter.) Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/9 "2010-03-07T05:10:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I live in Chicago and I cannot imagine the trouble that could ensue in parts of it if people were allowed to have guns in bars. I have seen plenty of bar fights and adding weapons to the mix I cannot imagine as being a good thing. In fairness, you live in Chicago, which has a ridiculously high crime rate, including gun crime rate, despite having a near total prohibition on pistols (a prohibition on all but those grandfathered in before 1982). It seems to me that the problem is not with the law itself. This wont be a problem. If it is, one year from the date of the effect of this law passing, I’ll take a youtube video of myself eating this thread (I’ll print it out, and eat it). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/10 "2010-03-07T05:33:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Under the current law, though, a person (with no permit required!!) may openly carry a weapon into a bar and drink. So the law requires that if a person who is carrying concealed wishes to eat dinner in a restaurant, he must switch to open carry. > > The law change is intended to fix that rather silly scenario. Why aren’t you in panic mode about the current law, which has for years permitted open carry in bars? I’m not in panic mode about the proposed law either. But I do think that it’s a bad idea, because I believe that people should not be intoxicated and carrying weapons, and it seems to me that it will be very easy to violate this new rule and drink with a concealed weapon. If the person is open carrying, the server can see that they’re carrying the weapon, and refuse to serve them enough alcohol to intoxicate them. But if the concealed carrying, there’s no way for the server to know he’s CC, and nothing to stop the person from getting drunk. And I think that’s dangerous. And I believe under the current law, it’s illegal to carry while intoxicated. That being said, I’d support a law to ban both open and concealed carry in places where alcohol is served. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/11 "2010-03-07T05:33:39Z")
What I wanna know is, who’s pushing for this law? How big is the “I wanna go sit in a bar with a concealed gun and not drink anything, galdarnit” demographic? And why is the right wing still in panic mode about our gun rights being taken away when gun laws actually seem to be getting looser and looser? They just recently passed one here that allows you to stick a gun up any random stranger’s butthole, cock the hammer, and follow them around all day as long as it’s not a harvest moon. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/12 "2010-03-07T05:52:17Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > They just recently passed one here that allows you to stick a gun up any random stranger’s butthole, cock the hammer, and follow them around all day as long as it’s not a harvest moon. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/13 "2010-03-07T05:57:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m not in panic mode about the proposed law either. But I do think that it’s a bad idea, because I believe that people should not be intoxicated and carrying weapons, and it seems to me that it will be very easy to violate this new rule and drink with a concealed weapon. This law will only allow the folks, who up to this point have done nothing to make their local sheriff think that they cannot follow the laws, be able to carry at Applebees or Mike’s Tap. They have been trusted by their sheriff to carry concealed weapon and follow all laws while doing so. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is stopping any other schmo who doesn’t have their permit from carrying illegally wherever they please. Figure out how to legislate that problem away and you’ll be eligible for a Nobel. > [@](#): > > And I believe under the current law, it’s illegal to carry while intoxicated. That being said, I’d support a law to ban both open and concealed carry in places where alcohol is served. So it’s already illegal to carry intoxicated. This law passes and it is still illegal. Where is the problem again? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/14 "2010-03-07T05:59:43Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > Cite? One assumes that he’s engaging in some humorous exaggeration, there. The Arizona legislature is working on a bunch of gun rights laws, though…getting rid of the requirements of a permit for concealed carry, getting rid of the requirements that guns be registered, allowing university professors to carry weapons on school grounds, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/15 "2010-03-07T06:04:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > One assumes that he’s engaging in some humorous exaggeration, there. The Arizona legislature is working on a bunch of gun rights laws, though…getting rid of the requirements of a permit for concealed carry, getting rid of the requirements that guns be registered, allowing university professors to carry weapons on school grounds, and so on. Since when did Arizona require people to register their firearms? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/16 "2010-03-07T06:07:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m not in panic mode about the proposed law either. But I do think that it’s a bad idea, because I believe that people should not be intoxicated and carrying weapons, and it seems to me that it will be very easy to violate this new rule and drink with a concealed weapon. Isn’t it already easy to violate the law and walk into a restaurant that serves alcohol while carrying a concealed weapon? Yes, but that doesn’t seem to bother you very much. > [@](#): > > But if the concealed carrying, there’s no way for the server to know he’s CC, and nothing to stop the person from getting drunk. And I think that’s dangerous. There’s already no way of knowing whether or not someone is carrying a concealed weapon. > [@](#): > > And I believe under the current law, it’s illegal to carry while intoxicated. That being said, I’d support a law to ban both open and concealed carry in places where alcohol is served. Again, it’s profoundly silly to issue concealed carry permits and then tell someone they can’t walk into Applebee’s. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/17 "2010-03-07T06:08:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It strikes me as incredibly stupid. Guns and inhibition lowering intoxicants are a bad mix. And I agree that the “Oh, but you can’t actually drink” part will be ignored. Only if you think it’s a bad thing when gun toting drunks kill each other. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/18 "2010-03-07T06:20:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > One assumes that he’s engaging in some humorous exaggeration, there. The Arizona legislature is working on a bunch of gun rights laws, though…getting rid of the requirements of a permit for concealed carry, getting rid of the requirements that guns be registered, **allowing university professors to carry weapons on school grounds, and so on**. Knowing the: "I’m-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong"ness of many college professors, this bit actually freaks me out a bit! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/19 "2010-03-07T06:27:20Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Since when did Arizona require people to register their firearms? The bill says that firearms manufactured in Arizona that are kept in Arizona are exempt from federal licensing laws. Here’s the text: > [@](#): > > HB 2307 exempts certain Arizona manufactured firearms, firearms accessories and ammunition from federal interstate commerce laws and regulations. > > Exempts from federal law or federal regulation, including registration, any firearm, firearm accessory or ammunition that: > > Is commercially or privately manufactured in Arizona from basic materials, and that can be manufactured without importing significant parts from out-of-state; and > > Remains within the state of Arizona. > > Exempts from federal regulation, any imported firearms accessory, generic or insignificant part or basic materials, that are incorporated into, attached to, or used in conjunction with a firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured in Arizona. > > Excludes from exemption, ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm, and any firearm that: > > Cannot be carried and used by one person; > > Has a bore diameter of more than one and one-half inches and that uses smokeless powder as a propellent; and > > Discharges two or more projectiles with one activation of the trigger or firing device. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/20 "2010-03-07T06:40:16Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Isn’t it already easy to violate the law and walk into a restaurant that serves alcohol while carrying a concealed weapon? Yes, but that doesn’t seem to bother you very much. It is, but I think a restaurateur is pretty safe from civil liability here. If there’s a law preventing somebody from carrying concealed into a restaurant, the restaurateur can say “I assumed he didn’t have a gun when I got him drunk, because the law bans concealed weapons in restaurants.” This law would mean that making that assumption isn’t reasonable anymore. > [@](#): > > There’s already no way of knowing whether or not someone is carrying a concealed weapon. You’re right, but by weakening the law, it makes it more likely someone will drink in a restaurant while carrying a concealed weapon. > [@](#): > > Again, it’s profoundly silly to issue concealed carry permits and then tell someone they can’t walk into Applebee’s. Only if you assume that because someone has a concealed carry permit it’s always appropriate for them to concealed carry everywhere. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588.md?page=2)