# Guns in bars **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588 "2010-03-07T03:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/21 "2010-03-07T06:46:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The bill says that firearms manufactured in Arizona that are kept in Arizona are exempt from federal licensing laws. Here’s the text: That seems strange since there’s no federal registration law that I’m aware of. Thanks for pointing that out though. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/22 "2010-03-07T06:48:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It is, but I think a restaurateur is pretty safe from civil liability here. If there’s a law preventing somebody from carrying concealed into a restaurant, the restaurateur can say “I assumed he didn’t have a gun when I got him drunk, because the law bans concealed weapons in restaurants.” This law would mean that making that assumption isn’t reasonable anymore. “I assumed he wasn’t carrying a gun because I couldn’t see one.” “I assumed he wasn’t carrying a gun because it is STILL illegal to carry and consume.” “I assume that people follow the law.” > [@](#): > > You’re right, but by weakening the law, it makes it more likely someone will drink in a restaurant while carrying a concealed weapon. Does this law negate the fact that it is illegal to consume while carrying? If not, what has been weakened? > [@](#): > > Only if you assume that because someone has a concealed carry permit it’s always appropriate for them to concealed carry everywhere. It is appropriate as it is legal. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/23 "2010-03-07T06:56:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > This law would mean that making that assumption isn’t reasonable anymore. Seriously? Even in Texas I don’t assume everyone is armed. > [@](#): > > You’re right, but by weakening the law, it makes it more likely someone will drink in a restaurant while carrying a concealed weapon. Do you have any evidence of this? In Texas permit holders can at least go into restaurants that serve alcohol. How many times has a CCW holder in Texas gone to a bar, got drunk, and proceeded to shoot someone or threaten them with his or her pistol? > [@](#): > > Only if you assume that because someone has a concealed carry permit it’s always appropriate for them to concealed carry everywhere. I think it’s appropriate at places like _On the Border,_ _Red Lobster,_ and _Outback Steak House._ Honestly, to oppose a CCW holder from entering those kinds of establishments **is** rather silly. If you’re opposed to all CCW, fine, but to oppose holders from entering certain establishments on the grounds that they might drink seems preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/24 "2010-03-07T07:01:07Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > That seems strange since there’s no federal registration law that I’m aware of. Thanks for pointing that out though. Class 3 weapons are registered by the Feds. AZ is a class 3 friendly state. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/25 "2010-03-07T07:03:22Z")
As a pretty dyed-in-the-wool liberal, I can’t see a real problem with this law. Anyone who’s going to get drunk and shoot the place up with a concealed weapon probably doesn’t have a permit anyway, and wouldn’t follow the old law if they did. This is going to affect, mainly, cops who want to have a drink on the way home after work, and I can’t say that I, as an unarmed bystander, am really worried about the sort of people who go through the hassle of getting a concealed carry permit getting hammered and shooting me. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/26 "2010-03-07T07:08:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The bill says that firearms manufactured in Arizona that are kept in Arizona are exempt from federal licensing laws. Here’s the text: That’s actually a perfectly reasonable law, because the Federal Government can’t reasonably state that it has a right to regulate it via the commerce clause of the Constitution. I believe Montana tried passing something similar – I don’t recall hearing much of anything about it. > [@Odesio](#): > > That seems strange since there’s no federal registration law that I’m aware of. Thanks for pointing that out though. According to some people, there’s a De facto registration with Form 4473 (“yellowsheet”) that’s filled out at all licensed gun sales locations. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/27 "2010-03-07T13:18:11Z")
I will add some facts to the discussion from my state: - In 2009 3 out of 25,693 CCW holders had their licenses revoked due to being intoxicated while carrying. No aggravating criminal firearms incidents occurred (meaning, the only crime committed was the act of carrying while intoxicated). - In 2008 either 1 or 2 (the report is unclear) out of about 17,000 CCW holders had their license revoked due to being intoxicated while carrying. No aggravating criminal firearms incidents occurred. - In 2007 3 out of about 11,000 CCW had their licenses revoked due to being intoxicated while carrying (although 1 was later acquitted and had their license reinstated). No aggravating criminal firearms incidents occurred. I have no details, however, on whether any of the arrests above were in bars, although one of them in 2008 was in a vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/28 "2010-03-07T18:57:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Manchester is what? 100,000 people? Any other city there even close (Nashua maybe?)? > > I think in smaller towns it is probably not a big deal. I live in Chicago and I cannot imagine the trouble that could ensue in parts of it if people were allowed to have guns in bars. I have seen plenty of bar fights and adding weapons to the mix I cannot imagine as being a good thing. > > What is fine some places is not fine in all places. Pennsylvania doesn’t have a law against carrying guns into bars and it also doesn’t have a law against being intoxicated and in possession of a firearm. In Florida, I can be at a table at Applebee’s, passed out drunk at my table with a holstered pistol in my belt, and I haven’t violated a single law (related to having the gun). This “they will all get drunk and kill each other” hysteria never happens anywhere. It is completely a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/29 "2010-03-07T19:20:22Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I will add some facts to the discussion from my state: > > - In 2009 3 out of 25,693 CCW holders had their licenses revoked due to being intoxicated while carrying. No aggravating criminal firearms incidents occurred (meaning, the only crime committed was the act of carrying while intoxicated). > > - In 2008 either 1 or 2 (the report is unclear) out of about 17,000 CCW holders had their license revoked due to being intoxicated while carrying. No aggravating criminal firearms incidents occurred. > > - In 2007 3 out of about 11,000 CCW had their licenses revoked due to being intoxicated while carrying (although 1 was later acquitted and had their license reinstated). No aggravating criminal firearms incidents occurred. > > I have no details, however, on whether any of the arrests above were in bars, although one of them in 2008 was in a vehicle. I wonder what the statistics for non-CCW holders being intoxicated while handling firearms is. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/30 "2010-03-07T19:23:32Z")
It is also a measure to help keep guns away from criminals. Prohibiting guns in such establishments inevitably leads to them being left in cars in the parking lot where they are vulnerable to theft. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/31 "2010-03-07T20:09:02Z")
Anti-gun people have some weird double standard about how they think people will obey some laws but not others. You believe that the current law banning people from carrying in establishments that serves alcohol is valuable and shouldn’t be repealed, because people will obey it. But when confronted with the fact that there’s also a law that would prevent people from drinking while carrying a firearm anyway, you just assume they will break that law. Why will they break one law but not the other? Another similar example to this is gun free zones around schools. You assume that someone who’s decided to go nuts and shoot up a school is willing to commit tresspassing, murder, etc. - but they wouldn’t dare violate the sanctity of a gun-free zone law! ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/32 "2010-03-07T20:10:10Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Class 3 weapons are registered by the Feds. AZ is a class 3 friendly state. Wait - does this mean that you can get a class 3 weapon (unregistered) if it’s made in Arizona and kept there? Can state law flaunt the NFA like that? Do you have more info about this? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/33 "2010-03-07T20:11:05Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > So it’s already illegal to carry intoxicated. This law passes and it is still illegal. Where is the problem again? I think the main objection would be, that there’s no way to tell if someone’s getting drunk while carrying, if he’s concealing. By the time the person is already intoxicated, it may be a little too late to object… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/34 "2010-03-07T20:12:01Z")
How is that different from the current situation, where the only thing preventing someone from entering an establishment that serves alcohol is their willingness to obey the law? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/35 "2010-03-07T20:20:07Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > How is that different from the current situation, where the only thing preventing someone from entering an establishment that serves alcohol is their willingness to obey the law? Dunno about you, but I’ve been in plenty of situations were people who’d otherwise obey the law fairly closely got violent while drunk, and if I were a bartender, I would be careful about how much booze I’d serve to someone in possession of a firearm (or any other arm, for that matter). FTR: over here, if you were carrying any (non-hunting) firearm, you’d most probably be arrested on the spot, and forget about entering a bar. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/36 "2010-03-07T20:23:19Z")
We may be talking about different things. I’m not talking about an open carry/concealled carry thing, but simply the idea that you should have a law preventing people from entering establishments that serve alcohol rather than simply to prevent drinking while carrying. Practically, if you concealled carry into a bar, you’re violating the law in most states. If you drink while carrying, you violate the law in most states. What the point of this thread is… is that if we repeal the law that you can’t enter the establishment, then people will get drunk with guns because they’re willing to obey the law that keeps them out but not the law that keeps them from drinking. No, nothing changes here - either the person obeys the law and doesn’t drink while carrying, or they disobey the law and it doesn’t matter if you have a law saying you can’t enter the establishment. The benefit, though, is that a guy can go to TGIF (with no intent of drinking) and not alter his carrying habits. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/37 "2010-03-07T21:10:30Z")
I can see the reasoning behind this law where restaurants are concerned, but who goes to a bar if they’re not planning on drinking? “No thanks, no beer for me, I’m the designated shooter”. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/38 "2010-03-07T21:17:53Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Wait - does this mean that you can get a class 3 weapon (unregistered) if it’s made in Arizona and kept there? Can state law flaunt the NFA like that? Do you have more info about this? It appears that everything Class 3, such as SBR’s, AOW’s, stupid things like forward grips on pistols, silencers, etc., short of full auto or select fire and were manufactured in AZ, would be exempt from Federal Regs. I’ll look into it some more. Wiki says that this the case for Montana made class 3 stuff, again short of the full auto guns. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/39 "2010-03-07T21:27:22Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > We may be talking about different things. I’m not talking about an open carry/concealled carry thing, but simply the idea that you should have a law preventing people from entering establishments that serve alcohol rather than simply to prevent drinking while carrying. > > Practically, if you concealled carry into a bar, you’re violating the law in most states. If you drink while carrying, you violate the law in most states. What the point of this thread is… is that if we repeal the law that you can’t enter the establishment, then people will get drunk with guns because they’re willing to obey the law that keeps them out but not the law that keeps them from drinking. I’m not very familiar with US gun laws, so I may have got stuff wrong. Sure, if the law is that you can’t drink **at all** while carrying, then the reasoning behind banning concealed carrying in bars becomes less obvious. On the other hand, I would like the bar operators to have some clear indication that they’re not serving (or serving more than they’re comfortable with) to someone who’s carrying a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/40 "2010-03-07T21:29:00Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In all the states that issue CCW permits, has anything like this been a problem? Back in the 1990s when states started to make it easier to get a concealed carry permit the opposition cried that it was going to be the wild west. Your argument seems to be more of the same kind of alarmist sky-is-falling argument. In other words, I don’t think it’ll make a difference in violent crimes in Virginia. It hasn’t been a problem in Minnesota because virtually all public establisments, on their own (not by law), have chosen to prohibit firearms on their premises and post signs saying they’re not allowed. I believe this resulkts in a lot less people carrying, because even though they’re allowed to outside or in their vehicles, they can’t bring them inside anywhere – no stores, no restaurants, no bars, no churches, no public buildings of any kind really, there isn’t any point in toting them because you would just have to leave them in the car. It’s also iilegal in Minnesota to be in possession of a firearm while under the influence, whethere you’re in a bar or not. In my opinion, it’s completely idiotic to mix guns and alcohol, but I’m all for letting thos idiots in Virginia learn the hard way. If they want to have drunk rednecks shooting at each other in bars, then let them have at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588.md?page=3)