# Guns in bars **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588 "2010-03-07T03:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/163 "2014-07-08T15:34:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s funny how there’s more attention to how I manage to remember to point out past predictions that have not materialized than to the past predictions themselves. Well, to be fair, its not like guns haven’t hijacked non-gun threads.🆒 And I think most people who own (and occassionally carry under a CCW) guns already knew this wasn’t going to be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/164 "2014-07-08T15:46:22Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Just out of curiosity for those of us wishing to avoid selection bias, do you also keep track of all of the predictions that you yourself has made over the years, and if it turns out that whatever doper you were tracking was right or that you were wrong do you start similar threads on those? I didn’t start a thread here. I posted an update to an extant thread. And I do that when I’ve been wrong on an issue I was tracking, too. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/165 "2014-07-08T16:07:35Z")
When passing legislation a common sense benchmark should be, ‘Would they have allowed this in Tombstone or Deadwood?’ ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/166 "2014-07-08T16:36:10Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > When passing legislation a common sense benchmark should be, ‘Would they have allowed this in Tombstone or Deadwood?’ And the answer is no. Both towns had ordinances against pistols in the town limits. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/167 "2014-07-08T17:38:04Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > When passing legislation a common sense benchmark should be, ‘Would they have allowed this in Tombstone or Deadwood?’ Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/168 "2014-07-08T19:42:24Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > When passing legislation a common sense benchmark should be, ‘Would they have allowed this in Tombstone or Deadwood?’ Arizona Law: State law prohibits the carrying of firearms in certain areas. These prohibited areas include: Establishments which are licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. However, this does not apply to: A person with a concealed carry permit who carries a concealed handgun, provided that there is no notice posted forbidding such, and provided that the concealed carry permit holder consumes no alcohol while on the premises. South Dakota Law: Concealed carry is not permitted at an elementary or secondary school, in a courthouse, or in any establishment that derives over half of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages. Both Arizona and South Dakota have state pre-emption of local gun laws (except in very limited circumstances) so the gun laws of the state of Arizona and South Dakota are the gun laws of all the localities within thestate. Seems like they would permit this in Tombstone and they would permit this in places that do not generate most of its income from the sale of alcohol. In any event, in case you weren’t paying attention, this law has been on the books here in Virginia for 4 years without much problem. The only thing I could find was this: On September 11, 2010, Wayne Meredith Latham walked into Waterstone Pizza in Lynchburg, Virginia-a restaurant with a no-guns policy-and ordered a beer. When Latham reached into his pocket for his wallet to pay the bartender, his unholstered .45-caliber Glock 36 went off in his pocket, discharging a round into his leg. Latham, who suffered minor injuries, then walked out of the restaurant, but was soon apprehended and arrested by police. He violated Virginia law by consuming alchohol while carrying a loaded firearm. Latham held a permit to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Virginia. He was convicted of recklessly handling a firearm and his permit was temporarily suspended for one year. [http://csgv.org/resources/2013/crimes-committed-by-virginia-concealed-handgun-permit-holders/](http://csgv.org/resources/2013/crimes-committed-by-virginia-concealed-handgun-permit-holders/) Frankly, I think its stupid to carry unholstered loaded firearms and I would be OK with a holster law (like a seat belt law, that would require all loaded weapons to be holstered while in public (with obvious exceptions for loading/unloading or firing at ranges). ---
**Author:** ![Lt.Skooma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47774/32.png) [@Lt.Skooma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lt.Skooma)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/169 "2014-07-11T03:11:53Z")
I don’t even understand the logical of this law. Who goes to a bar to not drink? The designated drivers? So now this law has unintentionally made the shitty job of being designated driver worse by making the D.D. our security detail as well. “Hey thanks for driving for us tonight man, oh hey before I forget can you hang on to my Baretta for me? I never go anywhere without it because you never know, but since I’m drinking tonight… it is now your responsibility to provide safe transportation as well as fire support if something were to go down. Hopefully you won’t be in a situation where you have to do both simultaneously” Another glaring deficiency is…GUN LAWS DO NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM CARRYING CONCEALED WEAPONS!!! Whatever dangers that people envision coming out of the woodwork with the passing of this bill is an illusion. If you are of the judgment to carry a concealed weapon while getting drunk, something tells me that you are doing it regardless of whatever laws are on the books about it. People who conceal carry 100% of the time, are doing just that 100% of the time. The law does not affect the safety of bars at all. Unless bars in Virginia are mandated to install metal detectors to scan their patrons, this just sounds like a concession made for the gun lobby. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/170 "2014-07-11T13:50:28Z")
> [@Lt.Skooma](#): > > I don’t even understand the logical of this law. Who goes to a bar to not drink? The designated drivers? If you read the thread you’d understand that there are plenty of “bars” in family restaurants like Applebee’s or The Olive Garden. Someone who carries concealed should be able to take his or her family out for a meal without breaking a law just because the joint serves alcohol. Let me guess: You’re in college, right? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/171 "2014-07-11T13:51:28Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Just out of curiosity for those of us wishing to avoid selection bias, do you also keep track of all of the predictions that you yourself has made over the years, and if it turns out that whatever doper you were tracking was right or that you were wrong do you start similar threads on those? Yes, I recall him doing exactly this in the past. **Bricker** puts his money where his mouth is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/172 "2014-07-11T16:16:03Z")
> [@Lt.Skooma](#): > > I don’t even understand the logical of this law. Who goes to a bar to not drink? Its not just bars, its places that serve alcohol. So you couldn’t go to anyplace that served wine. > [@](#): > > Another glaring deficiency is…GUN LAWS DO NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM CARRYING CONCEALED WEAPONS!!! Yes they do. They don’t prevent criminals from carrying concealed. I don’t carry concealed a lot but I can frequently spot when others are carrying. And if you are sitting down and carrying on your hip, I can usually see the grip of your gun poking through your shirt, especially in the summer. I’m old, my eyes are bad and I’m three or four tables away so I suspect that your server can spot it too. > [@](#): > > People who conceal carry 100% of the time, are doing just that 100% of the time. The ones I know that do this, don’t drink. > [@](#): > > The law does not affect the safety of bars at all. Unless bars in Virginia are mandated to install metal detectors to scan their patrons, this just sounds like a concession made for the gun lobby. You realize that this law removes the prohibition right? It just says you can’t drink and carry, just like it says you can’t drink and drive. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/173 "2014-07-11T22:53:13Z")
It’s been almost 3 years since Wisconsin legalized concealed carry and codified open carry. This includes being legal to carry in bars/restaurants that serve alcohol, and a clause in the law that deterred many businesses from prohibiting carry. While 3 years in the scope of history is a short time, it’s still long enough to start pointing things out to the nay sayers. There have been very few problems with lawful carriers. Open carry has not returned us to the “wild west days”, carry in the state capitol has not lead to assassinations, and fender bender car accidents have not lead to blood flowing in the street. The antis are just wrong on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/174 "2014-07-11T22:57:15Z")
It’s sort of amazing that we’ve legalized it in, what, 40 states now? And every single time, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, when it comes up for debate, they scream “they’ll be gunfights in the streets over parking spaces!”, and yet studies have consistently shown that concealed carry licensees are not only far more responsible than the average citizen, but actually handle situations that involve risk and force better than the average police officer. And yet here we are, with every new area considering permitting licensing laws, or any expansion to what the law covers, people simply ignore all of the experience we’ve had and act like it’s the first time and predict the end of the world. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/175 "2014-07-11T23:47:07Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > It’s sort of amazing that we’ve legalized it in, what, 40 states now? And every single time, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, when it comes up for debate, they scream “they’ll be gunfights in the streets over parking spaces!”. And what they don’t understand is, lots of states had some form of carry for years prior to the major gun rights push that began the late 80’s. I was in Arizona in the 60’s and 70’s and saw several people openly carrying, even in large metro areas. States like Georgia, New Hampshire, and Washington have had CCW for many years. Vermont has never, ever had a law against open or concealed carry. Yet the antis never recognize Vermont has one of the lowest per capita crime rates. Several more states have followed Vermont into “Constitutional Carry” and I’ve read no negative news about it’s effect. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/176 "2014-07-13T19:01:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s been four years since the law passed. > > So far, the trend is holding steady. > > Of course, you said four _additional years_, so I guess we need to wait until 2015? > > But the chances for an explosion of violence seem… small. To answer your question honestly, I respond to the emerging situation with interest, confusion, but not exactly surprise. The surprise part came during the 1990s. I haven’t skimmed [Nocera’s gun report](http://nocera.blogs.nytimes.com/category/gun-report/) for Virginia shootings involving alcohol. I still want to see that study - so actually it’s more like 2017. Sorry. That said, there might be a working paper somewhere that addresses some older data. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > …and yet studies have consistently shown that concealed carry licensees are not only far more responsible than the average citizen, but actually handle situations that involve risk and force better than the average police officer. Cite? Because the studies I’ve read indicate that they have piss-poor risk assessment capacities and their rates of violence are _comparable_ to that of the average citizen, not especially lower. My post is my cite: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14223178&postcount=148](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14223178&postcount=148) The post contains important caveats. More generally, I welcome Bricker’s resurrection of this thread, though it’s a bit of an oddity that I actually opened it. If I had the energy I’d organize some sort of prediction registry. Straight dealers mark their beliefs to market periodically: [my 2011](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14223401&postcount=151) post referenced by Bricker was submitted in that spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/177 "2014-07-13T20:54:24Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Straight dealers mark their beliefs to market periodically: [my 2011](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14223401&postcount=151) post referenced by Bricker was submitted in that spirit. Exactly correct. This is precisely what straight dealers do. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/178 "2014-07-14T06:29:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Exactly correct. This is precisely what straight dealers do. I disagree with you about a lot of stuff but this is one of the reasons I think SDMB has the best right wingnuts on any of the tubes of the interweb. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/179 "2015-05-03T23:39:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Virginia has a concealed carry law. One of the provisions of the law says that you’re not allowed to carry a concealed weapon in bars or restaurants where alcohol is served. > > Just the other day, the Virginia General Assembly [just passed a bill](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/va_general_assembly_approves_b.html), that the governor is expected to sign, that will change the law. Under the new law, you’ll be allowed to carry your concealed weapon into the bar or restaurant, as long as you don’t drink while you’re in there. The bill passed the legislature the past two years, but the governor vetoed it each time. Now that we have Bob McDonnell as governor, though, he’s promised to sign it. > > It seems to me that this is a bad idea. It seems to me that it’s a bad idea to have armed people in such close proximity to alcohol. I know the law says that people carrying aren’t allowed to drink, but what are the chances that that’s going to be obeyed? It’s not really very enforceable, and it seems like it can also cause trouble for bartenders. If some drunk guy shoots the bar up, I can see lawsuits being filed against the bar and bartender saying, “It’s your fault because you served booze to the armed guy.” > > Now, I know gun control debates on this board tend to turn into “Guns are evil” vs. “Guns are great”, but I’d like that not to happen here, if that’s possible. Can we talk about the merits or lack thereof of this particular bill? The OP was written in 2010. It’s now 2015, five years after the law passed. How many instances of drunk guys, carrying pursuant to concealed weapons permits, “shooting up bars” have come to pass? I asked that a year ago, and ende dup making this comment: > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s been four years since the law passed. > > So far, the trend is holding steady. > > Of course, you said four _additional years_, so I guess we need to wait until 2015? > > But the chances for an explosion of violence seem… small. And here we are in 2015. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/180 "2015-05-03T23:56:08Z")
Pardon for not reading the thread, but was this law used for either side to make larger points than the wisdom of this particular law, extending it to make a statement about gun laws in general? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/181 "2015-05-04T01:34:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I can see the reasoning behind this law where restaurants are concerned, but who goes to a bar if they’re not planning on drinking? “No thanks, no beer for me, I’m the designated shooter”. I do as do my friends. We go to bars to be around people and have a bite to eat. We have bars in my area that serve some damn good food. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588/182 "2015-05-04T02:10:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The OP was written in 2010. It’s now 2015, five years after the law passed. > > How many instances of drunk guys, carrying pursuant to concealed weapons permits, “shooting up bars” have come to pass? There have certainly been shootings in and around Virginia bars. I don’t know how many of those shooters had concealed weapons permits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-bars/531588.md?page=10)