Guns in bars

Maybe, but I suspect people are just irrational about guns.

My father’s background is Jewish, which means no one in his family ever hunted. (It makes meat non-kosher so there’s no tradition of it, and even non-practicing Jews like my dad see it as foreign culturally.) My mother’s from the UK and was raised Quaker, which she continued practicing when I was a child.

So I grew up in a fairly anti-gun family, and have fairly anti-gun values myself. I’m uncomfortable with guns, don’t like the idea of people having guns, and don’t think guns generally are an asset to society. Nevertheless, years of reading the SDMB have convinced me that many gun laws are poorly crafted and misguided, and have caused me to distinguish between those of my anti-gun beliefs that stem from analysis of factual data (the minority) and which are related to my personal values and preferences (almost all of them). [Take that, people who say GD never convinces anyone!] I’ve also seen how many people who share those values and preferences don’t make that distinction when it comes to guns.

Even people here who usually require cites and empirical data make claims about guns and violence based on “common sense,” assumptions, and anecdotes. The OP said that “it seems” to him to be a bad idea, apparently based on nothing more than gut feeling and speculation about the law’s enforceability. The very first response is about how the idea “strikes” the poster. People ignore the fact that there often is data to be analyzed, and it doesn’t always conform to common sense.

But that’s just human nature, and most of us do it, on both sides of this–and every–issue. I don’t think it’s a conscious decision to fight weak cases for “the principle of the thing,” as often as it’s the fact that it’s hard work to figure out which of your beliefs are rational and which are not.

What is there to comment on? The statistics show what the statistics show, and I’m glad there hasn’t been an increase in gun crimes in Virginia restaurants and bars over the past year. I don’t see that that changes the fact that guns are dangerous and that people, when they carry guns, are dangerous.

Fine; here’s my comment & theory. Either some other factor is causing a decrease in gun crime, or someone is lying. It’s much more plausible than the idea that after literally thousands of years of drunken people getting into violent trouble, suddenly alcohol has reversed its effects.

And before you start complaining about how unfair it is to accuse the people behind the claimed statistics of lying, I’d like to point out that you didn’t hesitate to preemptively accuse everyone who opposed the idea of armed drunks as lying about their motives. And the pro-gun crowd has a history of lacking any principles at all besides “guns good!” They’d lie, and lie proudly.

The article claims,

So who is lying in the instance? Are the state police somehow not reporting crime or pulling incorrect data due to their love of guns, or did the newspaper lie. In the first instance you would need a conspiracy by a large number of officers who all banded together to purposely stifle and manipulate data to further their agenda. In the second instance the newspaper is lying and it would be trivial for a rival newspaper or the police to expose this.

I’ve never really understood either side of the carry versus anti-carry debate.

I’m a gun owner, I love guns, I love shooting, I love hunting. I’ve had a concealed carry permit for ages.

I support the right to conceal carry or open carry. I have never really done either.

Why? I don’t see the point. I don’t understand why you need to carry a gun, we do not live in the wild west. The chances of you as a citizen being in a situation where your gun would be useful, in 2011 America is statistically very, very unlikely.

If I lived my life based on highly unlikely things I would never drive a car or fly in an airplane.

On the flip side, carrying a gun is almost always inconvenient. Whether open or concealed, there are always going to be places you can’t go into with a gun. Why go through the hassle of having to walk 10 blocks back to your car because you were downtown doing a few things and forgot you needed to go into some place that prohibits firearms?

I just don’t see the utility versus convenience as justifying the carrying of firearms on a personal level.

That being said, virtually no one is killed by gun enthusiasts open carrying or concealed carrying lawfully. These are a group of people who by and large to do not use their guns illegally. They may be people who are overly paranoid about safety, unrealistic about their ability to respond to various situations and etc. However, that is their choice, that is their right, and if they want to conceal or open carry I have no idea why people get so uptight about it. These are not the people committing gun crimes, and statistics bear that out.

My fastest google-fu suggests persons licensed to carry killed around 161 people from May 2007 to April 2010 (15 of those killed were killers who took their own lives.) For those years the average number of homicide victims killed by firearms was around 9601/year. (10,129 in '07, 9,528 in '08, and 9,145 in 2009–the last year I found data for that was complete.)

The time span for the 161 doesn’t exactly correlate with calendar years (it ranges from 5/07 to 4/10) but what we can surmise is that doing quick envelope math that’s about 35 months time period with a rough average of 800 firearm homicides a month for a total of 28,002 estimate homicides over that period, the 161 is 0.005% of the total. So by and large licensed carriers of firearms are simply not who you need to be worrying about. Not when more than 99.995% of gun homicides are committed by people who do not have a concealed weapons permit.

purple monkey dishwasher - terms so I can easily search for this post again. It may prove useful in future.

I can’t imagine what for. Either this is the first time Dio has made a categorical claim that was later proven false (yeah, right!), in which case I don’t know why you’d want to save this, or it’s happened before (possibly many, many times before!) in which case . . . what’s this one supposed to prove?

Besides, he didn’t say when it would happen, and the universe isn’t supposed to reach maximum entropy for, oh, about a googol years now.

First of all, “the wild west” is completely a creation of pop culture.

I don’t think anyone really “needs” to carry a gun. Even police don’t need to carry guns; the cops in the UK don’t. But people who live in or who have to travel to/through dangerous areas, especially on foot, would be wise to have a gun on them. I guess it’s “unlikely” that they’d ever need to use it, but why take the risk? I know if I had to walk through Gary every day, I would want to be armed, and I say that as a strong and fit 25-year-old male. If I was disabled or elderly, there’d be no question.

Anyway, banning guns from any specific area is pretty pointless - if someone wants to bring one in, for whatever reason, they’ll do it. All it accomplishes is making sure the responsible (law abiding) people won’t be armed, but it sure as hell doesn’t guarantee that the non-law-abiding, irresponsible people won’t be armed.

Certain aspects of the “Wild West” are obviously a creation of popular culture (especially of the 1870s-1910s, when the wildest exaggerations were actually propagated in dime novels and various stage acts) but what was true is that in large parts of the “wild west” law enforcement was scattered or non-existent, and individual citizens absolutely would have to assume law enforcement roles semi-regularly. No, they didn’t need them for gun battles on the streets ala the O.K. Corral, but they did need them. Theodore Roosevelt actually formed a posse to apprehend thieves during his time as a western cattle rancher, so it’s not like that part of it was fictional.

Except that gun-involved crime in bars dropped. So the asserted basis to oppose this change in the law appears to have been wrong.

Your post has a sort of flavor of, “I don’t care what the numbers say, guns are dangerous and that’s that.”

That doesn’t acknowledge or explain the fact that proponents predicted no significant increase in crime in bars, and the response to that prediction was, in effect, just what you said: guns are dangerous and that’s that. Der Trihs is reduced to wild speculations that the state police and newspaper must have colluded to conceal the truth, apparently in the mode of operation that decides when facts conflict with ideology, the facts must give way.

Concealed-carry or open, for the life of me, I cannot understand why a law exists anywhere allowing firearms to be brought into an establishment serving alcohol. Let’s say that all the people who have CCW’s are law-abiding, reasonable folk. Why would these people ever feel it a necessity to bring a loaded firearm into a bar, regardless of whether or not they are imbibing?

I go frequently to socialize with friends, and am the designated driver because as a diabetic I would rather do my carbs of something nutritionally dense. I also have a policy of not drinking and driving.

This question has been answered scores of times before on here. Some of the possible answers:

  • Because bars and their environs can be dangerous places?
  • Because it’s not only a pain, it’s not necessarily safe to have to keep stashing your weapon in the car every time?
  • Because you may not be able to safely put your weapon someplace?
  • Because if you’re not violating the law, you shouldn’t be treated as if you were?

Bricker nailed it; it really does just come down to a philosophical difference. Just cover your ears and repeat loudly “guns R bad.”

And Chronos, I have to go to bars all the time with clients and friends, and I rarely drink in them. And never if I’m carrying.

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence, and one study isn’t extraordinary evidence. The claims of one study on a subject that people have always been willing to lie and distort about don’t overrule thousands of years of history, or the basic fact that gun fights are more lethal than fist fights.

And somehow if next year the crime rate ticks up instead I’m sure you won’t bother to mention that, and you certainly won’t admit that means you were wrong. So don’t bother to act all superior, this is just another of your smirking “gotcha” posts.

Which is perfectly rational reason to not let people walk in with weapons.

I’m sure I’m restating something already said earlier, but not all bars are created equal. In some states the law is such that you may not carry into an establishment that serves alcohol. Period. That would eliminate popular chain restaurants like Chili’s, TGIFridays, and Outback, among others. Even if you’re just going in for a steak.

If I wouldn’t take it off to go into a McDonald’s, why would I to go get a steak? Laws like this do not permit carrying while drunk, they just allow people to go in and have a nice dinner in an establishment where alcohol might otherwise be served.

In Pennsylvania, where I live, you can carry a weapon into a bar, get piss-ass drunk, and as long as you have a permit they can’t do anything about it. They can’t charge you with a firearms violation, the businesses can’t placard the establishment or throw you out for having one, and yet the streets do not run red with blood. I don’t know that there has ever been a drunken shooting by a CCW holder in a bar here, at least not one that I’ve heard of

The bottom line is this: people who are against the carrying of firearms oppose this and the people who are for it support it. it’s typical battle lines with typical boilerplate arguments. That’s really all there is to it.

This is not a study, at least in the sense that a study is an effort to discern the total informational picture by examining representative data. This is in fact a complete report over the entire year of all crimes reported to the police.

And let me get this straight: you posit a conspiracy between the newspaper and the police to falsify data, and say that my claim is the extraordinary one?

Sure I will.

I have done similar posts in the past.

Except it’s true. Guns are dangerous, and you don’t need statistics to prove it. It seems to be something both sides can agree on. In fact, it’s the whole rationale behind carrying a pistol. People who regularly carry a pistol don’t do it because they think they might get pulled into a surprise sharpshooting tournament. They do it because they’re worried they’ll be in a situation where somebody is going to attack them or somebody else, and they know they can better injure or kill that person if they’re carrying a weapon than if they’re unarmed. In short, they know it makes them more dangerous.

But it doesn’t therefore follow that allowing more guns will lead to more injuries or deaths. It certainly seems like it should. But if there’s one thing the Straight Dope has taught me, it’s that “It seems like it should” is the antithesis of science. It is the source of more ignorance and superstition than “My teacher taught me” and “I read somewhere” put together.

Or that the data is caused by something else. And yes; something that contradicts thousands of years of human experience is pretty extraordinary.

Thousands of years, eh? That IS extraordinary. I’d love to see a Roman gatling gun.