# Guns in stadiums, good idea or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 17, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935 "2016-12-17T16:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dickerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dickerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dickerman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/61 "2016-12-19T02:46:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > All I am asking here, is what scenario do you think would be improved by having a gun at a stadium? In what scenario do you think that even one life would be saved by you having a gun? I carry a knife in my pocket almost everywhere I go. I’ve never used it as a weapon, but have used it thousands of times for other purposes. So I carry it because I find it useful, and in the unlikely chance that I’ll need it for self defense or defense of others, it will be available. I don’t remove it from my pocket when I can’t imagine a scenario that would be improved by my having it. The people who could carry legally under this proposed law probably wouldn’t carry because they felt a particular need to carry at the stadium specifically, but because they carry throughout the day, before and after the four hours they may spend at the stadium. As I’ve tried to point out earlier, there’s a non-zero risk in not carrying game day or leaving your gun in the car while you’re at the game. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/62 "2016-12-19T03:03:01Z")
I agree with everyone who says this is a bad idea. Yeah, I know there are going to be people who are carrying. Why don’t we just abolish ALL laws, since only criminals violate them? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/63 "2016-12-19T04:29:49Z")
I, too, carry a knife almost everywhere, because I can think of a lot of situations where having it would be a good thing. I don’t carry a gun, because I can’t think of situations where having it would be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dickerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dickerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dickerman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/64 "2016-12-19T04:30:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s a lot of potential for a chain reaction, with so many people in such a close proximity. Are you aware of this type of thing ever happening anywhere? If you are, I’d be interested in learning more about it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/65 "2016-12-19T04:44:26Z")
> [@Dickerman](#): > > Are you aware of this type of thing ever happening anywhere? If you are, I’d be interested in learning more about it. [Here’s some: > [@](#): > > [ul]2013: In California, officers involved in the search for Christopher Dorner mistakenly fired at least 100 rounds at a truck occupied by three people, none of whom had any connection to the suspect.[6] Each of the two women injured received $2.1 million in a settlement with the city of Los Angeles. > 2012: NYPD officers responded to a report of shots fired with one victim killed in front of the Empire State Building. Officers fired sixteen rounds wounding 9 bystanders and killing the shooter.[7] > 2011: On Memorial Day in Miami Beach several police officers fired until their magazines were empty on a stopped car after the driver smashed into other cars, killing the driver and injuring seven bystanders.[8] > 2010: A bystander was injured in Harlem when a man “open[ed] fire on responding officers, who fired 46 times in response.”[4] “In the Harlem episode, unlike the Bell and Diallo cases, a gun was shot before any officers fired, according to the police account. So, Professor O’Donnell said, in the Harlem case, ‘there really is a shot,’ and not just the threat of gunfire.”[4] > 2009: A man threatening officers with a rifle was shot 59 times in what was ruled a “suicide-by-cop”[9] in Chattanooga, Tennessee. > 2006: Five officers fired 50 shots at Sean Bell in Queens, New York, including 31 by one detective - who reloaded his weapon during the incident.[2][4][10] > 2006: Three officers fired 26 shots at a pit bull that had bitten a chunk out of an officer’s leg in the Bronx, New York in July.[11] > 2006: Police in Lakeland, Florida fired 110 rounds at a suspect, Angilo Freeland, who had killed an officer earlier, hitting him 68 times. Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd told the Orlando Sentinel, “That’s all the bullets we had”.[12] > 2005: Eight officers fired 43 shots at Brian Allen, an armed man, in Queens, New York killing him.[13] > 2005: June, six Los Angeles County, California sheriff’s deputies fired more than 50 shots into the car in which drunken driving suspect Carl Williams was driving, after his car rammed a police vehicle following a chase. One deputy had to reload his weapon during the incident.[14] > 2004: “When 44-year-old drug suspect Winston Hayes’ SUV lurched forward he hit a police car, deputies unloaded their weapons, firing 120 shots. Four bullets ended up hitting Hayes who survived, one hit a deputy sheriff, 11 hit patrol cars and 11 hit five homes in the neighborhood (one of them ended up tearing a hole in a homeowner’s hat).” —ABC News.[14] > 1999: Four officers fired 41 shots at Amadou Diallo, an unarmed man in the Bronx, New York on February 4, 1999.[4][15][16] > 1998: New Jersey State Police fired 11 shots at Daniel Reyes and three other basketball players in their car in April.[17] > 1970: May 4. Kent State shootings [At 12:24 pm,[18] according to eyewitnesses, a Sgt. Myron Pryor turned and began firing at the students with his .45 pistol.[19] A number of guardsmen nearest the students also turned and fired their rifles at the students. In all, 29 of the 77 guardsmen claimed to have fired their weapons, using a final total of 67 rounds of ammunition. The shooting was determined to have lasted only 13 seconds, although John Kifner reported in the New York Times that “it appeared to go on, as a solid volley, for perhaps a full minute or a little longer.”[20] The question of why the shots were fired remains widely debated.[/ul] ]([Contagious shooting - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_shooting)) ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/66 "2016-12-19T06:42:53Z")
That is all cops & military, where are the ones done by civilian CCW weapons carriers? Now just who is it that needs more training? All of these cites are about people who are supposed to be trained in this type of thing. They go to the danger… CCW holders are not LEO’s or Firemen that are paid to go towards trouble. Where are the reports of CCW weapon people going towards a mass shooting event to play gunfighter? A lot of ‘they will go crazy and all be shooting at anything that moves’ are being said with no proof from even the Onion. Want to die in a crowd? Go to England where there are no guns and cheer a feetsball team from the wrong side of the pitch. Bawahahahha Hummmm. let’s keep maybe a 1000 people with firearms from a stadium so that you will not be afraid. Better Idea, the 100 that are that afraid should just stay home. It seems the largest number of unarmed civilians shot by others who are not themselves criminals ( at least they should not be ) are shot by the police. Why don’t you fear them as they are all over the stadiums during games? Look at those cites, so why are you not afraid of them? You need to fear people, not knives or guns or ball bats. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/67 "2016-12-19T06:54:26Z")
I fear bullets. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/68 "2016-12-19T13:36:47Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Hummmm. let’s keep maybe a 1000 people with firearms from a stadium so that you will not be afraid. Better Idea, the 100 that are that afraid should just stay home. > . Or, if you are terrified of leaving your house without your gun, maybe it is you that should stay home. You know, there are dangers out there that even your gun can’t protect you from. Most of them far more likely to kill you. If I felt that leaving my home without my gun would leave me in danger, I also wouldn’t leave my home without a full set of body armor, a life preserver, a first aid kit, and a snorkel. Do you carry all of these life saving pieces of gear with you? Do you even carry even the most rudimentary first aid kit with you? I bet you would save a dozen lives with that before you saved a single life with your gun, probably even your own. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/69 "2016-12-19T14:05:09Z")
> [@Dickerman](#): > > I carry a knife in my pocket almost everywhere I go. I’ve never used it as a weapon, but have used it thousands of times for other purposes. So I carry it because I find it useful, and in the unlikely chance that I’ll need it for self defense or defense of others, it will be available. I don’t remove it from my pocket when I can’t imagine a scenario that would be improved by my having it. > > The people who could carry legally under this proposed law probably wouldn’t carry because they felt a particular need to carry at the stadium specifically, but because they carry throughout the day, before and after the four hours they may spend at the stadium. As I’ve tried to point out earlier, there’s a non-zero risk in not carrying game day or leaving your gun in the car while you’re at the game. So, not arguing that carrying your gun into a crowded stadium makes you safer, that is a much more rational perspective to take. You are arguing that your convenience should take precedence. So, I’ve asked those who do not feel safe without their gun what price they are willing to subject the public safety to in order to quell their fears, and got crickets on that. As yours is a more rational reason, I ask you, what price you are willing to impose upon public safety for your convenience? ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/70 "2016-12-19T14:54:08Z")
Even if someone were going to draw and fire their gun in self-defense in a stadium, (which is what this is for) _how the hell do they ensure they don’t hit someone else?_ This isn’t a dark lonely alleyway, this is a packed stadium with tens of thousands of people. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/71 "2016-12-19T15:27:55Z")
I remember the bad old days when there would be 1-3 stories per year about people ‘cleaning’ loaded weapons in stadiums and having accidents. This is fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/72 "2016-12-19T16:57:27Z")
In general, how frequently do incidents serious enough to require stadium security to intervene happen? Considering that out of 50,000 people quite a few would fit under the bottom 1% of the bell curve, stadium crowds seem to be _individually_ well-behaved. (All bets are off when it comes to _crowd_ behavior.) ---
**Author:** ![Dickerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dickerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dickerman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/73 "2016-12-19T18:41:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As yours is a more rational reason, I ask you, what price you are willing to impose upon public safety for your convenience? Very little. If it were legal for me to carry to an event at a stadium and I chose to carry, the risk to the public would be far less than the risk to the public of me driving there (and in many decades of driving I’ve never been in an injury accident). If I were armed it actually make it less likely that I would be involved in altercations since I wouldn’t be drinking and would be more consciously avoiding them. ---
**Author:** ![pyromyte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d26b3c/32.png) [@pyromyte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pyromyte)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/74 "2016-12-19T18:58:15Z")
CDW permit holder here… I don’t feel compelled to actually carry very often, BUT one of the few times I really wish I could is when going to sporting events at our local arena. To explain, parking is in short supply for large events, and I generally have to park blocks away, often in an alley. Sometimes I can get a garage spot, which are generally dimly lit, but there is still a long walk through our downtown area. Most of these events are happening after sunset, and usually prompt people to carry cash. Anyway, for whatever its worth, I don’t really want to carry while I’m in the arena…Its the traveling to and from the arena that worries me. I’ve made the trip a lot, unarmed, with not problems, but I still worry. I am certain a lot of you will tell me that if I’m that worried, I should just stay home. Fine, whatever, that’s like your opinion, man… I just wanted to express that carrying in an arena/stadium does not automatically equate to expecting the threat to actually arise inside the venue. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/75 "2016-12-19T20:34:14Z")
> [@pyromyte](#): > > . . . Anyway, for whatever its worth, I don’t really want to carry while I’m in the arena…Its the traveling to and from the arena that worries me. . . . Best argument anyone on the pro-gun side has made. Definitely worth thinking about. (Doesn’t apply in some cities, where the stadiums are either in nicer sections of town, or have their own parking lots with additional fast mass transit access, etc. Not all places make you walk through seedy areas. But, yeah, some do.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/76 "2016-12-19T20:39:26Z")
> [@pyromyte](#): > > CDW permit holder here… > > I don’t feel compelled to actually carry very often, BUT one of the few times I really wish I could is when going to sporting events at our local arena. > > To explain, parking is in short supply for large events, and I generally have to park blocks away, often in an alley. Sometimes I can get a garage spot, which are generally dimly lit, but there is still a long walk through our downtown area. Most of these events are happening after sunset, and usually prompt people to carry cash. > > Anyway, for whatever its worth, I don’t really want to carry while I’m in the arena…Its the traveling to and from the arena that worries me. I’ve made the trip a lot, unarmed, with not problems, but I still worry. > > I am certain a lot of you will tell me that if I’m that worried, I should just stay home. Fine, whatever, that’s like your opinion, man… I just wanted to express that carrying in an arena/stadium does not automatically equate to expecting the threat to actually arise inside the venue. Sounds like, in stadiums that make people walk through bad parts of town, it may be a good idea to put in a gun check at the gates. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/77 "2016-12-19T23:12:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As we are talking about closed venues where there are armed guards and it would not be difficult to make a reasonable effort to detect and screen them coming in, then you are agreeing with me? > > If not owning one, and not really thinking it is necessary to carry one every day and every place in order to feel safe makes me anti-gun, then I guess by your definition, I am. > > I am pro-gun where it comes to responsibly owning, keeping, and safely using guns, which I think is a much more useful and less emotionally charged definition. > > The reason I use the term “butcher’s bill” in the context of the stadiums is because I do not see a use for them. Can you cite one single instance where a “good guy with a gun” (that was not part of a paid armed security force) did anything at all beneficial in a stadium? Can you cite a situation where, had a good guy with a gun been around, things would have been better off? If not, then any and every instance of accident or other mishap is unnecessary, and is a price paid only to give people a false sense of security. > > The point is, if you have guns, you are going to have accidents and other sorts of incidents where people get hurt. If this is in defense of a greater good, then it is maybe a necessary thing. If you can’t actually point to the good that will be done, then it is an unnecessary risk, IMHO. My main response was to your use of _overall_ statistics of gun accidents in response to being asked if a slight modification of carry laws would make a significant difference. It’s obvious if there are guns in 55 million households (a quoted number, there’s no certain number but it’s a lot) there will be a fairly large absolute number of gun accidents. It’s not obvious a slight change to where you can take them would make a noticeable difference, and ‘if it could save one life’ is a basically logically flawed argument in a 300 million person country, for anything. It’s not obvious there will be any significant addition to gun accidents from people carrying guns to one more place. IOW my hypothesis is that neither you nor pkbites could provide statistics proving or even general indicating that either way, which is again IME almost always the case with statistics and guns for measures actually debated. If guns magically disappeared there wouldn’t be lots of gun accidents, or lots of people deterring violence against themselves as also surely happens a lot. But they aren’t going to, and it doesn’t follow directly that there will be lots more accidents at the margin relative to ‘good cases’ if you let the 10’s of millions of guns into a few more places. And, though it’s not the general style for gun debates, no I don’t have to completely disagree with you to comment. 🙂 I don’t have a big problem excluding guns from stadiums. But I wouldn’t have a really big problem with not excluding them, definitely not a big problem from afar if they did it in states where lots of people carry guns. Again where I live basically nobody can carry a gun anywhere. Which believe it or not is not the hugest issue for me either way. If I forced to give an opinion I’d say my state’s gun laws are over the top, and some of them are definitely idiotic (eg. how you can remove a bayonet lug from the AR-15 and legally sell it in NJ, but the whole family of the M1 carbine, the peashooter M1 carbine for Chrissake, is an ‘assault rifle’: that’s something written by people who know nothing about the topic they are making policy on, which they criticize when done by the other party, hypocritically though not necessarily incorrectly 🙂 ). But not a big factor in my life, and there just isn’t strong statistical evidence that gun laws within the realm of possibility make much difference. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/78 "2016-12-20T02:27:26Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I fear bullets. 😛 All I fear is fear itself and the obligatory Robot Chicken link [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLcIAJsaF3o) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935/79 "2016-12-20T03:57:50Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I fear bullets. 😛 “There’s no shame in admitting that you’re outgunned” -quote that someone ought to have said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-in-stadiums-good-idea-or-bad/774935.md?page=3)