# Guns: Newsweek proposes a compromise **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345 "2015-07-16T18:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/81 "2015-07-17T21:45:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Uh, how about slowing down the constant gun violence? you do realize this country has a serious gun problem right? [Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; **Public Unaware**](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/82 "2015-07-17T22:01:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Which makes you as bad as the idiots who support the TSA. When you are willing to sacrifice people’s freedoms not to do something worthwhile but just to _pretend_ you’re doing something worthwhile, that’s nothing more than security theater. Your mistaken assumption is that its just pretend that gun control don’t work. Assume they do, now its not so stupid to call for gun control, is it? You see when you make up strawmen, any argument you spew forth sounds good. “Hey guys! Banning guns will cure cancer and give every man an erection! Its a great idea!” That’s kind of what you thought I said, but with less erection and more straw Freedoms can and should be sacrificed. Free is having an open border with no immigration controls, do you want that? Free is being able to harass someone and stalk them, do you want that? Free is if your neighbor decides to play loud music from 1am to 5am and you can’t do anything to stop that, do you want that? So don’t bring up freedom until you know what the fuck you’re talking about. It is perfectly fine to trade some freedom for security, you’re doing it now, we’re all doing it, we just differ on how much. A complete gun ban is a perfectly reasonable amount of freedom for me to trade away to get better security ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/83 "2015-07-17T22:04:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Uh, how about slowing down the constant gun violence? you do realize this country has a serious gun problem right? In addition to Bone’s point about the declining gun violence, I’ll say that I remain unconvinced that most of the solutions proposed by gun control advocates would actually decrease violent crime. I think it’s fair to say that, as a whole, the country has moved substantially towards the gun rights’ position on gun laws in the last two decades, and, despite dire predictions of soaring violence, we’ve seen crime decline. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/84 "2015-07-17T22:06:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > A complete gun ban is a perfectly reasonable amount of freedom for me to trade away to get better security Genuine curiosity here: what makes you believe that “a complete gun ban” will get you better security? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/85 "2015-07-17T22:21:21Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Uh, how about slowing down the constant gun violence? you do realize this country has a serious gun problem right? I would certainly like to have mine in the house when [Darryl Dennis](http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2015/may/21/dennis-murder-trial-continues/) breaks into the house. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/86 "2015-07-17T23:40:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Genuine curiosity here: what makes you believe that “a complete gun ban” will get you better security? In fact, an attempt at a complete gun ban would almost certainly lead to much more death, as crazy gun nuts shoot government agents who come to take their guns. For what it’s worth, any attempt at a meaningful reduction in gun crime would have to actually look at the causes of gun crime; urban youth shooting each other with cheap handguns, and criminals of every ethnicity committing crime with cheap handguns. Flag draped tea-partiers with dozens of expensive scary black rifles account for a negligible amount of gun crime. The left will never perform this analysis because they think it’s racist, but if they did they’d be able to come up with some plausible methods that might actually limit gun crime: [ul] [li]Stricter enforcement of existing laws on handguns[/li][li]Raising the minimum age necessary to purchase handguns[/li][li]Increased penalties for handgun possession[/li][li]A substantial tax on handgun purchases, making new weapons unprofitable for street crime[/li][/ul] I don’t necessarily agree with these provisions, and I don’t think there’s any need for a law that implements them, but I think they could plausibly decrease handgun crime. Most of what liberals are pushing for is ineffectual at best. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/87 "2015-07-17T23:49:39Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Your mistaken assumption is that its just pretend that gun control don’t work. Assume they do… You said “Gun banners like me… would accept a lopsided deal to look like something’s being done…” “To look like something’s being done” is a fucking stupid reason to introduce a law. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/88 "2015-07-17T23:52:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > “To look like something’s being done” is a fucking stupid reason to introduce a law. Of course it it, but politicians want to become re elected. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/89 "2015-07-18T00:02:55Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > …pose a serious threat to any government official who tries to establish a dictatorship. > > You know, the things the 2nd Amendment was written for. Please provide a cite. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/90 "2015-07-18T00:10:36Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please provide a cite. Come, now, it is obvious to the meanest mentality, being in the Constitution. Great Britain, the revolution and all that. Admittedly useless now that the government has things like aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons, and drones. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/91 "2015-07-18T00:11:53Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please provide a cite. [One example.](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html) > [@](#): > > There are many reasons why the militia was thought to be “necessary to the security of a free state.” See 3 Story §1890. First, of course, it is useful in repelling invasions and suppressing insurrections. Second, it renders large standing armies unnecessary—an argument that Alexander Hamilton made in favor of federal control over the militia. The Federalist No. 29, pp. 226, 227 (B. Wright ed. 1961) (A. Hamilton). **Third, when the able-bodied men of a nation are trained in arms and organized, they are better able to resist tyranny.** (my bold) Another: > [@](#): > > Besides ignoring the historical reality that the Second Amendment was not intended to lay down a “novel principl[e]” but rather codified a right “inherited from our English ancestors,” Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U. S. 275, 281 (1897) , petitioners’ interpretation does not even achieve the narrower purpose that prompted codification of the right. If, as they believe, the Second Amendment right is no more than the right to keep and use weapons as a member of an organized militia, see Brief for Petititioners 8—\*\*if, that is, the organized militia is the sole institutional beneficiary of the Second Amendment ’s guarantee—it does not assure the existence of a “citizens’ militia” as a safeguard against tyranny. \*\* (my bold in both examples) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/92 "2015-07-18T00:18:22Z")
The drafters of the Constitution clearly had reservations about it working, it was the first after all. They clearly said in the document itself to trash it if it was failing. Nowhere in the Second Amendment is any intent of an armed populace to decide by mob the government is a tyranny and stage a coup. They were most afraid of a government that would use the people to house their soldiers and thought the lesser evil would be for the citizens to arm themselves in the interest of the state. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/93 "2015-07-18T00:19:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > [Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; **Public Unaware**](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/) Where’s the rest of the list? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/94 "2015-07-18T00:21:29Z")
Bone, that is fantastic, a 2008 court ruling. Have anything regarding intent by the people alive when the second amendment was written. And bonus points, actually voted for it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/95 "2015-07-18T00:29:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Bone, that is fantastic, a 2008 court ruling. Have anything regarding intent by the people alive when the second amendment was written. And bonus points, actually voted for it. A brief Google search does not tell me when and by whom the amendments were ratified. I presume the Constitution provides for amendments. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/96 "2015-07-18T00:40:16Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Raising the minimum age necessary to purchase handguns I note your caveat at the end, but: it’s already 21, what arbitrary age should we set it to? Yes, that means that you can join the military, be issued a handgun, and yet cannot buy your own at the store. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/97 "2015-07-18T00:43:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where’s the rest of the list? You’ve made the mistake of asking an incoherent question. Rephrase at your leisure. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/98 "2015-07-18T00:44:38Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I note your caveat at the end, but: it’s already 21, what arbitrary age should we set it to? Yes, that means that you can join the military, be issued a handgun, and yet cannot buy your own at the store. But in the military it’s _their_ gun, _they_ tell you who you can and cannot shoot, and _they_ can take it away from you at any time without notice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/99 "2015-07-18T00:49:17Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You’ve made the mistake of asking an incoherent question. Rephrase at your leisure. The topic of the post was gun _violence_, and you moved the goalposts to strictly limit it to gun _homicides_. What about intentional shootings that did not result in death, accidental shootings that resulted in death, accidental shootings that did not result in death, and suicides? When all those are included, has gun _violence_ increased or decreased? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345/100 "2015-07-18T00:52:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The topic of the post was gun _violence_, and you moved the goalposts to strictly limit it to gun _homicides_. What about intentional shootings that did not result in death, accidental shootings that resulted in death, accidental shootings that did not result in death, and suicides? When all those are included, has gun _violence_ increased or decreased? [It has also declined considerably.](http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?iid=4616&ty=pbdetail) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-newsweek-proposes-a-compromise/725345.md?page=6)