Guns / weapons choice questions

Factual Questions
21

Someone mentioned that SMG’s are better performers than pistols, but what kind of pistol are we considering, what kind of load, has anyone considered that law enforcement can get higher capacity magazines than civilians? There are a lot of variables that are not being considered here.

Berretta used to make a pistol, 92F series, that sported a 15 round magazine. I bought one, because at the time it was legal to do. Later, another company made a magazine that had a capacity of 18 rounds. I came to find out that law enforcement can get a magazine for that weapon that holds 22 rounds. If a policeman carried one magazine in his weapon, and 2 mags on his person, then that is a lot of ammo for this police man.

Then consider the bullets used. There are bullets available to the public called “controlled expansion hollow-points.” These bullets expand to a larger diameter when they hit a target, while still retaining some of their penetration capacity. They come in 9mm, 10mm, and .45 calibur, and if someone were to use these, then the knock-down factor is greatly increased. Police department policy determines who gets to use these types of bullets.

My opinion and a dollar will buy a cup of coffee, but I am certain that for the 10mm weapons out there, and for the .45 calibur sidearms, there are similiar capacity magazines. And these are the sidearms of choice because they will knock down an opponent with one shot.

22

No, the M16 fires the NATO 5.56mm (aka Remington .223) cartridge.

And the mini-Uzi (the pistol version) has a firing rate of 900 rds per minute, not 600.

Since nobody seems to have answered yet, a submachine gun is a full-auto capable gun that is chambered for a pistol round. The M16 is not an SMG - it’s an Assault Rifle.

23

Colt did produce the M-16 in 9mm.

24

A sub machine gun or machine gun have advantages and disadvantages over a handgun. 80% of people shot with a handgun survive. Obviously, movies and media have distorted the true power of handguns. An assault weapon, however, generally has a higher muzzle velocity and stopping power. Some of that has to do with the longer barrel and bullets used. Assualt rifles and SMGs are generally easier to maneuver and aim in a hostile situation because you can use two hands to support different ends of the weapon. Assault rifles and SMGs have more versatility in combat because of the different rates of fire (3 round burst, full auto, etc.). They also hold more ammunition, which can be very helpfull in a hostile situation. And the most obvious reason, assualt rifles and SMGs on automatic or burst fire make casually or hastily aiming at a target easier because of the spray of bullets. Handguns, on the other hand, can be concealed and more easily purchased than Assault Rifles and SMGs. The expanding hollow point rounds are more commonly referred to as Jacketed Hollow Point rounds (JHP) and have a better take down rate because they expand inside the target, instead of heavier rounds such as Full Metal Jacket rounds (FMJ) which often pass right through, transferring very little momentum.

25

Joe: Just wanted to pick you up about the Uzi. According to the people that make it, the Uzi SMG fires 600 rpm. In fact, no variant of the Uzi fires 900 rpm.

http://www.imi-israel.com/imi/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.1.2.12.2.1.html

26

Oh, and thanks to Padeye for your insightful posts.

Cinyrus: Cite? I’m not saying I don’t believe it, but it’s an interesting stat and I’d like to read more.

27

As has been previously noted by Padeye, there are a few companies out there that either make a 9mm conversion kit-type thingy for the M-16, or just manufacture it as a 9mm.

Machine pistols are just that: fully automatic handguns. They typically have larger (longer, actually) magazines, since a full-auto pistol can eat up a 15 round magazine of bullets fairly quickly. Not that a 30 round mag. lasts that much longer. Machine pistols may also have some form of folding wire-style stock, like the Beretta 93R.

I personally think that they are useless; since there is a market for them somewhere, then someone, probably much more qualified than I, disagrees.

The submachinegun is a different class of weapon altogether, although variants from one manufacturer to another sometimes blur the distinctions. But submachineguns, commonly referred to as “subguns” or by the abbreviation “SMG,” typically have a foregrip of some sort. While not as long as a typical rifle’s foregrip, it does allow a better grip (thus better stability, hence greater accuracy) than a handgun. SMG’s also typically have slightly longer barrels than the average handgun, although there are a few models of handguns with barrels just as long, if not longer than, that of an SMG.

It’s difficult to say with absolute certainty that all SMG’s are chambered for pistol ammunition; because the moment that someone makes a declarative statement to that effect, some manufacturer somewhere will make, brand and identify a SMG-sized weapon chambered for a rifle cartridge.

To my way of thinking, that weapon would or should be classified as some sort of mini-rifle. But “naming” conventions vary to some degree from one country to another.

Susanann: all the weapons you named on your list are commonly classified as submachineguns, in the U.S.A. at least. Because of their fully automatic capability, they are regulated by the BATF the same way as the M-16 Assault Rifle firing .223 (5.56 mm), the M-60 machinegun firing .308 (7.62 mm) and the Browning M2 machinegun firing .50 caliber bullets (much larger than the Desert Eagle .50 AE in length!).

samarm: I am not aware of any U.S.A. federal regulation prohibiting municipal police forces from firing in burts or full-auto mode. That’s not to say that such a regulation doesn’t exist; IANAL, and may be mistaken.

But it would seem kind of silly, to me at least, to outfit a police force with M-16A1s or A2s, and then prohibit them from using the weapon to its full capability.

28

ExTank: Great post, thanks for the information.

A fellow Elite veteran I see! :smiley:

29

I’m in IMHO territory but this is a hollywood myth. “Spraying” bullets is the most effective way to make sure almost none hit the target.

I think subguns are so effective because they combine light weight and speed with the control of a shoulder weapon. Muzzle rise is reduced so followup shots have a better chance of being on target. You may notice many SMGs have a vertical foregrip. This allows the shooter to pull downward better than with a traditional rifle type foreend. Add excellent ghost rings sights like on the H&K and you have the whole enchelada, speed, firepower and accuracy.

30

ExTank, I’ve only seen the Beretta 93R fired by John Travolta in a movie but a class III dealer brought a Glock full auto pistol to a subgun match once. After a bit of a debate we all agreed he’d be at no great advantage and let him shoot the match. It was quite eye opening. He was lucky if the first shot in a burst managed to hit a target and not once did he hit anything after the first round. He emptied three 30 round magazines trying to knock down a dozen plates and still didn’t get them all. If there’s a function for a full auto pistol aside from movie prop I haven’t seen it either.

FWIW the H&K MP5K/PDW has a 6" barrel.

31

Seems like the OP has been answered.

I believe a main reason for law enforcement to use the 9mm M-16/AR-15 style rifle is due to the penetration hazard posed by the 5.56mm/.223 cal round. It will pass through a car, or wall, and keep on going.

That rifle is also has a .308cal kit.

I’ve always heard that submachine gun referred to pistol ammo and machine gun = rifle ammo.

32

Padeye: I’ve only seen a 93R at a gun show, where a group of guys (with more money than sense), all Class III, were a sort of “full-auot enthusiasts” club. They had (for exhibition only) a nice assortment of full-auto firearms on display.

The H&K has only a 6" barrel? I would’ve thunk that it’d be a bit longer. Huh.

B & I: that definition is a good baseline for dividing the categories. Things like the 9mm M-16 is one of those cases of weapons which blur the distinction a bit, as well as the Thompson which is nearly rifle sized, say something on the order of a carbine.

samarm: I know quite a few people who might get a good chuckle out of anything in the 1st Cav being referred to as “elite.” Oddly enough, a persistent rumor throughout the Armor/Cav community was that the Soviets had classified the 1st Cav ( as well as the 2nd, 3rd and 11th Armored Cav) as an elite outfit.

It may be the military version of UL, as I never saw any Soviet Intel threat assesments, but it was always good for a laugh.

33

ExTank ACtually the MP5K has a 4.5" barrel that doesn’t extend past the foregrip. The PDW variant has 5.5" as it has the three lug extension for suppressors. The longer models with a rifle type foreend have barrels less than 9" long.

Blown & Injected The AR-15/M-16 cannot be converted to .308 as the recievers, particularly the magazine well in the lower aren’t big enough. There is a AR type rifle called the AR-10 along with several clones and variants that is available in .308

34

Some good information here. I’ll just add a couple of items: Within certain restrictions like criminal background checks and local LEO approval, anyone can own a Class III firearm. This includes full auto firearms up to and including .50 caliber, and short-barrelled shotguns. The red tape in pretty involved, but if you fulfill all the obligations of registration and legal ownership, you can own some very exotic firearms - even you can afford the purchase price and the cost of feeding the dang thing. Full auto fire is actually good for very few things; fire suppression is one of them. In other words, if attacked, full auto fire can help break the attack. An operator can become fairly proficient in using full auto fire for pinpoint accuracy if three things are done on a regular basis: practice, practice, and practice. This entails a goodly portion of time and LOTS of ammo. Because many newer generations of sub-guns fire from the open bolt (UZI, MACs in all their configurations, KGs, etc.), they are not as accurate as some of the closed-bolt guns (H&K MP5s and even the older Reising) because the mechanical action of the bolt closing jars the muzzle and moves it off the target. Again, with practice, this can be overcome. Most open-bolt guns rely on “pre-ignition” or “slam-fire” operation to fire the cartridge, by the way. One last point: for a long time, it was generally accepted that 9mm was the best round for short barrelled weapons employed for close-quarter battle (like building entry), but that opinion is slowly changing to the use of .233 ammo. Many factors are involved, but essentially new advances in ammunition have made the lighter, faster round more reliable. For my money, the H&K model 89 was probably the best compromise for all situations.

35

Jeez - .223 ammo, obviously. And I meant to say “…IF you can afford the purchase price and the cost of feeding the dang thing.”