# Guns: What's the big deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145 "2009-02-09T23:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/81 "2009-02-11T21:28:17Z")
> [@](#): > > The latest firearm figures were released a day after more than 500 officers carried out raids in north London in what police described as a “pre-emptive strike” against gun crime. > > Eleven addresses in Islington were searched by police in full body armour using battering rams. > > Armed officers led teams of police, dog handlers and immigration and customs officials. See, they are doing something like my suggestion here, but I think they should probably be raiding homes with military connections, as well as those with occupants of Eastern European origins, where I suspect a lot of the arms could be coming from. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/82 "2009-02-11T21:30:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > See, they are doing something like my suggestion here, but I think they should probably be raiding homes with military connections, as well as those with occupants of Eastern European origins, where I suspect a lot of the arms could be coming from. Might as well search all homes for any illegal drugs, go over everyone’s bank accounts for traces of fraud, and tattoo barcodes on the back of everyone’s neck to keep track. –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/83 "2009-02-11T21:32:45Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > Gun control laws simply take away the capability of law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, and the statistics prove this. No, your cite showed no decrease in crime where there is less gun control. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/84 "2009-02-11T21:39:09Z")
> [@FlyingCowOfDoom](#): > > Might as well search all homes for any illegal drugs, I’m more worried about guns than I am illicit drugs. The two don’t always go hand in hand. > [@FlyingCowOfDoom](#): > > go over everyone’s bank accounts for traces of fraud, You might have got that Madoff fella and a few others if they did. > [@FlyingCowOfDoom](#): > > and tattoo barcodes on the back of everyone’s neck to keep track. > –FCOD That sounds a bit extreme. Are you saying it would be like giving up all our rights if we allowed the police random access to our homes? With the right independant oversight, do you not think this might be an effective assault on gun crime? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/85 "2009-02-11T21:44:27Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m more worried about guns than I am illicit drugs. The two don’t always go hand in hand. > > You might have got that Madoff fella and a few others if they did. > > That sounds a bit extreme. Are you saying it would be like giving up all our rights if we allowed the police random access to our homes? With the right independant oversight, do you not think this might be an effective assault on gun crime? To be clear, you’re suggesting that the police should be allowed to randomly search my house without any evidence, a warrant, or even probable cause that I might have a firearm? 'Cause that is giving up our rights. There is no “right independent oversight” for such a thing, it would be abused to no end. I can’t even comprehend how anyone would think this is a good idea. No offense, but I’d like to keep my rights, thank you. –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/86 "2009-02-11T22:10:28Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I was assuming a fully competent bunch of LEO’s would be doing the raiding. That is a huge assumption to make. > [@](#): > > It seems that if criminals have difficulty acquiring weapons without the help of a ‘honest’ license holding middleman, the police would only need to start on those registered owners, randomly searching their properties until all were crossed off from further enquiries, and then the net would just have to be widened until everyone had been in it at least once!. You seem to be missing a few steps in there, namely total gun registration as well as the labeling of some or all guns as banned. Also, that pesky constitution of ours would get trampled upon with a scheme like this at least in two separate amendments, not to mention the shear manpower required to check every household at least once in the next 100 years. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/87 "2009-02-11T22:18:04Z")
There is no ''right independant oversight" because no one has created it yet. I’m sure these operations could be recorded on film from start to finish by someone, in order to protect from abuses on the job. And if every raid is planned and logged, police won’t be able to just pick out targets on a whim because they wouldn’t have the authority. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/88 "2009-02-11T22:23:39Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#): > > What I can’t understand is why people are so afraid of them. Ditto. Automobiles are terribly dangerous, but there isn’t the irrational fear of them as I see sometimes with guns. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/89 "2009-02-11T22:25:31Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > That is a huge assumption to make. > You seem to be missing a few steps in there, namely total gun registration as well as the labeling of some or all guns as banned. Also, that pesky constitution of ours would get trampled upon with a scheme like this at least in two separate amendments, not to mention the shear manpower required to check every household at least once in the next 100 years. These don’t seem to be totally insurmountable problems though. And wouldn’t the eventual benefits outweigh the ongoing inconvenience? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/90 "2009-02-11T22:28:20Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Ditto. Automobiles are terribly dangerous, but there isn’t the irrational fear of them as I see sometimes with guns. Maybe that’s because automobiles can be associated with far more positive uses than guns can? I’ll readily admit I’m just guessing. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/91 "2009-02-11T22:35:54Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > These don’t seem to be totally insurmountable problems though. And wouldn’t the eventual benefits outweigh the ongoing inconvenience? Are you being serious or am I being whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/92 "2009-02-11T22:46:09Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > There is no ''right independant oversight" because no one has created it yet. I’m sure these operations could be recorded on film from start to finish by someone, in order to protect from abuses on the job. And if every raid is planned and logged, police won’t be able to just pick out targets on a whim because they wouldn’t have the authority. Well here in the US what you describe would be called “obtaining a warrent” based on “probable cause”. Which pretty much obviates your original suggestion. Why are guns a big deal? Why do gun owners oppose “reasonable” restrictions? Why do gun owners constantly cite the Second Amendment and insist guns are a constitutional issue? Why not let trained responsible government professionals deal with crime and public safety? I can tell you why in one sentence: **AUTHORITY TURNS PEOPLE INTO ASSHOLES; STUPID ASSHOLES, AND YOU CAN’T TRUST THEM!!** That sums up the entire ideology the US government was founded on. We wrote a constitution not merely to spell out the mundane details of how the government was to be organzied, but in large part to say “We the people trust the government this far, and no farther”. And because of a long history of what assholes with power had done in England, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights includes a list of things that the government is explicity forbidden to do. One of these, the Second Amendment, forbids the government to ban the population from owning firearms- no matter how supposedly good the government’s intent. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/93 "2009-02-11T23:02:35Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Are you being serious or am I being whooshed? I’m serious. I’m open to persuasion as to why my thoughts are erroneous though. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/94 "2009-02-11T23:43:02Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m serious. I’m open to persuasion as to why my thoughts are erroneous though. > [@The Fourth Amendment](#): > > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/95 "2009-02-11T23:49:25Z")
> [@FlyingCowOfDoom](#): > > –FCOD I wouldn’t say it was totally unreasonable for a society to make every effort possible to make sure guns no longer get in the wrong hands, and eventually remove them from those who have no right owning them. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/96 "2009-02-11T23:51:25Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I wouldn’t say it was totally unreasonable for a society to make every effort possible to make sure guns no longer get in the wrong hands, and eventually remove them from those who have no right owning them. How will you prevent criminals from acquiring guns? Guns exist, we can’t un-create them. Removing them from everyone will actually only remove them from responsible citizens and a small number of criminals. –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/97 "2009-02-12T00:08:05Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I wouldn’t say it was totally unreasonable for a society to make every effort possible to make sure guns no longer get in the wrong hands, and eventually remove them from those who have no right owning them. Pheh. Conducting home raids will accomplish nothing; criminals just won’t store their guns at home. Duh. Or rather, they will accomplish _something_ - they will subject the random citizen to pointless and invasive home raids. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/98 "2009-02-12T00:15:06Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > And please don’t say “criminals break the law, so laws are useless against criminals.” You know that’s circular logic. The point is that law (and enforcement) \*\*can \*\*decrease the number of people who are willing and able to become criminals. Yep been working great so far :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/99 "2009-02-12T00:41:22Z")
Guys, look, it’s just ivan shifting the blame from criminals to citizens again. ‘If you have nothing to fear, you shouldn’t object’. Apparently, ivan is a big fan of the general idea that if you don’t explicitly hunt down all potential criminals and/or defend against all criminal situations whatever happens is your own fault.’ ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145/100 "2009-02-12T00:41:58Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Yep > > been working great so far :rolleyes: He said reduce, not eliminate. Do you seriously think that there’s _nobody_ who has refrained from crime due to the threat of arrest and prison? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guns-whats-the-big-deal/485145.md?page=6)