# Guranteed annual income--conservative option **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 11, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289 "2015-06-11T20:44:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/41 "2015-06-15T16:27:55Z")
I supported the idea when it was called a negative income tax - but only as a displacement of existing social safety net programs, not in addition to. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/42 "2015-06-15T16:29:54Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > I’d quit my job if I had a guaranteed basic income. I’d imagine a lot of similarly skilled labor would do the same. Not if it was “comfortable subsistence” and no more. No, you probably wouldn’t get to keep your savings/investments/retirement separate. And **Bone** has it right - it cannot be just some kind of addition to our current social support structure. A subsistence-level income plus single-payer health care is all you get without earning what more you want or think you need. No subsidies at any other level - from childcare to special-needs to “job development” to industrial or farming supports - no more “welfare” of any kind. Will some take the check and check out? Sure. No loss, and likely cheaper than the welter of “welfare” supports they’d otherwise get. Will some use it as a platform to get trained, educated and skilled - many in ways that are not this-week’s-IT-niche? Certainly. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/43 "2015-06-15T16:32:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What is your definition of a basic income? Why would you quit? Food, shelter, internet connection. I know internet connection wouldn’t fit most people’s criteria for a basic income, but I’m assuming that should this idea ever get traction it’ll be far enough in the future that most people will have had internet access available their whole lives, thus view it as a necessity. I’d quit because I dislike the stress that comes with work. As an aside, a lot of times when I see someone advocating for a GBI on the internet they drop this Buckminster Fuller quote: > [@](#): > > “We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” I can’t help but think if we had invoked this idea during Fuller’s lifetime there wouldn’t be much of an internet for that quote to be spreading around. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/44 "2015-06-15T16:39:09Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Not if it was “comfortable subsistence” and no more. I would. What makes you think I wouldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/45 "2015-06-15T16:44:44Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > You are assuming the implementation of Basic Income without any other changes, which is not possible. > > Nor is income tax the sole revenue stream for such a program. Your bumper sticker dismissal is nonsense. OK, run the numbers for us. How much do people get, what will the tax rates be, and how will it be funded? Be specific - if you want to raise taxes on the rich, who are the rich and how much will you raise them? How much will you save eliminating welfare, WIC, and the other means-tested transfers of the government? What about Social Security and Medicaid? Does this supercede state programs, or supplement them? What about differing cost of living rates? If you want more than a bumper sticker response, you need more than a bumper sticker proposal. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/46 "2015-06-15T16:57:09Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Not if it was “comfortable subsistence” and no more. Those two words you used have very different meanings depending on who you ask. What’s worse, the meanings tend to change over time. Humans have a funny way of adjusting to their circumstances. Do you really think people receiving fee money are willing to remain content with what they get? And what about the people providing the free money? It’s not hard to imagine a scenario in which the person getting free stuff has a more comfortable subsistence that the person providing it. How do you think that will go over? ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/47 "2015-06-15T17:08:10Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Properly implemented, Basic Income solves quite a few economic issues. For one thing, it would likely cost less than the massive, complicated, bureaucracy-heavy and generally unsatisfactory in all ways “welfare” system. Barring the Zombie Apocalypse, the triumph of the Ultra-Right or the Second Coming, we are going to have those costs in some form - why not make it simple, as free from overhead cost as possible and non-demeaning? > > Throw in the endless money we spend trying to “create” and “support” employment, and I’d bet it would be a net savings, long-term. > > There are not ever going to be self-supporting/family-supporting jobs for everyone again - the postwar era was an anomaly, not normality, and we’ve doubled in population since then while the number of meaningful jobs continues to decline for many reasons. Basic income meets both the social responsibility for the well-being of all citizens and opens many possibilities for meaningful, useful employment for a worker pool less than “every adult.” This is one of the things people say when they haven’t run the numbers. A basic income of 10,000 a year given to everyone would run 3 trillion a year, or 85% of current federal spending (which of course includes such things as government agencies and defense). And 10,000 is below the poverty line, so of course people would want more money. Saying that a basic income would reduce government spending is factually-incorrect wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/48 "2015-06-15T17:09:52Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > I would. What makes you think I wouldn’t? Maybe you would. Most people driven enough to succeed in a skilled career are not the same people who would take a subsistence income and drop out of the game. > [@Shodan](#): > > OK, run the numbers for us. How much do people get, what will the tax rates be, and how will it be funded? Not a clue, offhand. It’s not my primary objective and I see it very much as a phase-two or -three step, but one to aim for. I do not mean, and do not believe in any practicability of “tax the shit out of some small segment to provide for everyone else.” It’s much more a rebalancing of what we already have, and spend, and “tax” - but to more sustainable and all-around dignified ends. We already have a large portion of the population that is revenue-neutral to revenue-deficit. We could solve a huge number of problems by not pretending that 100% self-sustaining employment is achievable outside of an econ model, and throwing endless dollars down the rathole of trying to make that happen. > [@emacknight](#): > > How do you think that will go over? As part of an overall socioeconomic reform, quite well. But yes, if you’re stuck in the usual groove of these discussions where it’s moving the same worn pieces around the same overgrown chessboard - as in “tax the shit out of the rich to pay for everything, the bastards” - then the only future is wearing out those pieces yet further. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/49 "2015-06-15T17:55:19Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Maybe you would. Most people driven enough to succeed in a skilled career are not the same people who would take a subsistence income and drop out of the game. I disagree. Most people I’ve met don’t work harder than they have to. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/50 "2015-06-15T18:13:25Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > I disagree. Most people I’ve met don’t work harder than they have to. But that’s a slippery index. “Work” at a job they dislike, in a career they chose for the wrong reasons? Skating becomes a way of life. (And really, all of that is further argument for a system that doesn’t drive people into detrimental work-to-“succeed” jobs.) Most people, given a chance to do something productive with their time, will - just not necessarily “productive” on the earn-a-bigger-flatscreen scale. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/51 "2015-06-15T18:13:52Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > I’d quit because I dislike the stress that comes with work. Basic income aside, this suggests to me that you should find less stressful work. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/52 "2015-06-15T18:24:04Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > But that’s a slippery index. “Work” at a job they dislike, in a career they chose for the wrong reasons? Skating becomes a way of life. (And really, all of that is further argument for a system that doesn’t drive people into detrimental work-to-“succeed” jobs.) > > Most people, given a chance to do something productive with their time, will - just not necessarily “productive” on the earn-a-bigger-flatscreen scale. I’m a software engineer who writes software in his spare time. Nothing would be more pleasing to me than to be able to spend all day building my own stuff for no other reason than the enjoyment I get out of building it. > [@](#): > > Basic income aside, this suggests to me that you should find less stressful work. Sadly I don’t know of too many positions where I can alternate between tasks based solely on what I’m in the mood to learn that day. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/53 "2015-06-15T18:29:07Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > You are describing communism. No. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/54 "2015-06-15T18:42:32Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > Sadly I don’t know of too many positions where I can alternate between tasks based solely on what I’m in the mood to learn that day. So you chose a career you knew would require you to be a full-time wage worker over a career that would give you personal satisfaction. You’re hardly alone, but that’s one of the starting points for considering other choices early enough to make them a reality. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/55 "2015-06-15T18:50:39Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > So you chose a career you knew would require you to be a full-time wage worker over a career that would give you personal satisfaction. You’re hardly alone, but that’s one of the starting points for considering other choices early enough to make them a reality. I chose the career that made me a full-time wage worker because I live in a system where full-time wage work is superior to any alternatives. With a GBI, I could just as easily acquire all the skills I have now but have absolutely no incentive to use those skills to benefit anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/56 "2015-06-15T19:01:50Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > I chose the career that made me a full-time wage worker because I live in a system where full-time wage work is superior to any alternatives. Is it, now. You can think of no other… personal economic structure that would have brought you more of the satisfaction you more or less say you’re lacking? ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/57 "2015-06-15T19:04:11Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Is it, now. > > You can think of no other… personal economic structure that would have brought you more of the satisfaction you more or less say you’re lacking? Not one that will retain our current rate of innovation, no. I have no doubt I’d be happier if there were a GBI. I still think it’s a horrible idea. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/58 "2015-06-15T19:06:22Z")
Our current structure doesn’t seem to have done anything to incentivize _you_ to innovate. You’ve been a full time wage earner because you are too risk averse to try anything more entrepreneurial. Imagine how much more innovative you might be if misjudging the market wouldn’t put you in the poorhouse. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/59 "2015-06-15T19:12:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Our current structure doesn’t seem to have done anything to incentivize _you_ to innovate. You’ve been a full time wage earner because you are too risk averse to try anything more entrepreneurial. Imagine how much more innovative you might be if misjudging the market wouldn’t put you in the poorhouse. Just because I build something doesn’t mean I need to share it with people. I like designing for myself, to fulfill my interests, not the market’s. Plus I get time off from my current job when they decide to pursue a patent on my inventions. That’s a pretty nice incentive for a guy like me to share marketable ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289/60 "2015-06-15T19:27:31Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > Not one that will retain our current rate of innovation, no. I have no doubt I’d be happier if there were a GBI. I still think it’s a horrible idea. So full-time wage jobs promote innovation, while those who choose otherwise don’t innovate? I’m confused. That seems backwards. Full-time wage jobs promote security and discretionary income over pretty much all else. ETA: > [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > Plus I get time off from my current job when they decide to pursue a patent on my inventions. That’s a pretty nice incentive for a guy like me to share marketable ideas. So you chose to take a wage job that will let you sell your patentable ideas to your employer (for something a lot like the traditional “dollar in hand,” I assume, and not royalties), are unhappy doing so, and think that you couldn’t have done this entirely to your own tune and benefits as an individual? This is all leaning way over into hijack territory, but I am interested in the way your story is unfolding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guranteed-annual-income-conservative-option/722289.md?page=4)