# Gus Savage & the pitfall of abusing racism accuations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562 "2015-11-03T22:57:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/41 "2015-11-04T18:45:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > More to the point, the DoJ report [got results](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/opinion/reforms-follow-protests-in-ferguson.html?_r=0): Sure. But the attempt to use the Brown case to get other results, such as changing attitudes among the public, backfired. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/42 "2015-11-04T19:06:53Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure. But the attempt to use the Brown case to get other results, such as changing attitudes among the public, backfired. You asked what the residents of Ferguson got out of the Brown case; I told you (new city officials and state-level reform). As for changing public attitudes, I’d wager that the spotlight on the Ferguson situation (including the police force’s heavy-handed response to protests) influenced public opinion in a pro-police-reform direction. I’ll look for polling data when time allows. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/43 "2015-11-04T19:44:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know about that, I recall a lot of news coverage, and a lively discussion here at the Dope. News coverage and dicsussion about how the cop was cleared of racism, yes. It wasn’t GOOD coverage. It backfired badly. > [@](#): > > The hard part is implementing all those steps; once that was done, their efficacy would be relatively easy. But first city and state officials have to be convinced to implement the reforms, and the police forces to implement them in good faith. That’s the hard part - police, like anyone, prefer not to be accountable, and politicians have to appease the pro-police-and-anti-black-people portion of the electorate. All true. BTW, one can be pro-police without being anti-black. One can even be police and black (which is a huge part of the solution that we’ve both forgotten). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/44 "2015-11-04T19:47:44Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You asked what the residents of Ferguson got out of the Brown case; I told you (new city officials and state-level reform). I’m talking about the overall struggle, not just Ferguson. > [@](#): > > As for changing public attitudes, I’d wager that the spotlight on the Ferguson situation (including the police force’s heavy-handed response to protests) influenced public opinion in a pro-police-reform direction. I’ll look for polling data when time allows. Maybe, but I’d bet hardened the opinions of those who are inclined to see the cop as right and claims of racism to be bogus. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/45 "2015-11-04T20:41:53Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > News coverage and dicsussion about how the cop was cleared of racism, yes. > > It wasn’t GOOD coverage. It backfired badly. I’m seeing as much or more discussion of police misconduct and racism, though. I’m seeing real reform being discussed and enacted. If that’s a backlash…more of that, please. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > All true. BTW, one can be pro-police without being anti-black. Sure; I intended to convey that by using a compound phrase, as opposed to writing “pro-police and anti-black”. I was only referring to people who hold both positions. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > One can even be police and black (which is a huge part of the solution that we’ve both forgotten). Not I: > [@Human\_Action](#): > > …more diverse police forces… > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m talking about the overall struggle, not just Ferguson. As above, I’m not seeing the problem. The anti-reform people moved on to whether Shaun King was black or not for a while, in the meantime real reform is being discussed and implemented. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > Maybe, but I’d bet hardened the opinions of those who are inclined to see the cop as right and claims of racism to be bogus. That’s probably beyond the scope of a poll, but I’ll see what I can find tonight. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/46 "2015-11-04T21:57:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … and where blacks are the victim of violence more often than whites, Your points are sound other than this one as far more blacks are the victims of black-on-black violence than white-on-black. Racism has nothing to do with that. - ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/47 "2015-11-04T22:49:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m seeing as much or more discussion of police misconduct and racism, though. I’m seeing real reform being discussed and enacted. If that’s a backlash…more of that, please. You’re seeing it in spite of the Brown case, not because of it. > [@](#): > > Not I: I stand corrected. It popped into my head then, and I realized it is more important than all the other reforms combined. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/48 "2015-11-04T23:02:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You’re seeing it in spite of the Brown case, not because of it. Maybe; it’s impossible to know for sure given the other cases around the same time. Still, I find it hard to believe that the DoJ report and images [like](https://www.google.com/search?q=ferguson+protest&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=667&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMI_Kuluu_3yAIVzEMmCh1sVgMY#tbm=isch&q=ferguson+protest+tear+gas&imgrc=OtGo_IIJMVYgcM%3A) [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=ferguson+protest&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=667&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMI_Kuluu_3yAIVzEMmCh1sVgMY#tbm=isch&q=ferguson+protest+tear+gas&imgrc=WcpWoWkL552A_M%3A) had no effect. In terms of polling, I came up with this: [Gallup: In U.S., Confidence in Police Lowest in 22 Years](http://www.gallup.com/poll/183704/confidence-police-lowest-years.aspx) It shows a 5% decline in the period under discussion; but again, there’s no way to separate the Brown case from all the others. Oh well. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > I stand corrected. It popped into my head then, and I realized it is more important than all the other reforms combined. No problem. Agreed, it’s quite important; anything that divides the police from the community (even just living elsewhere, like the Ferguson PD did) is a potential problem. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/49 "2015-11-04T23:52:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then they should be able to pick a better example. > > I think the trouble is that BLM and similar movements need a clear example of an innocent victim, clear cut racism, **and** indifference by the system. None of those things should be prerequisites as they have zero to do with someone being profiled, arrested, murdered, or otherwise made worse off by racism. This is like when people think “provocatively dressed” women who have willingly slept with lots of men can’t be raped. It’s just victim blaming, and the spurious examples you raised later in your post just highlight this fact. More importantly though, it just highlights the broader issue that the existence and prevalence of racism has to be continually, painstakingly proven to White America using airtight examples for them to believe such a thing exists. And even when those examples arise, as they do on a regular basis, no prescriptive solution is offered, no remedy is sought, and no action is proposed beyond a slap on the wrist for the perpetrator for being a random bad apple who made clear what millions of people know to be true, that race was, is, and probably will be an insidious issue for the foreseeable future. Why does a case for racism need to be made when it’s transparently clear on a systemic and individual basis? The entire books written about slavery, lynching, redlining, sunset towns, forced sterilization, sports segregation, military segregation, employment discrimination, white flight, police misconduct, etc. etc., and yet the burden of proof still rests on Black people to prove beyond any and all reasonable doubt that racism led to a specific incident or else they are just imagining things. Never mind decades and decades of decades of documented history (much of which is ongoing and still being written), indisputable statistics, and numerous first hand accounts. There still seems to be no desire to even give the victim in these circumstances the benefit of the doubt. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > News coverage and dicsussion about how the cop was cleared of racism, yes. How exactly was the cop “cleared of racism”? What does that even mean? > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Your points are sound other than this one as far more blacks are the victims of black-on-black violence than white-on-black. Racism has nothing to do with that. Even if it was true, it is completely beside the point. Second, it’s not true. The biggest reason that “Black on Black” crime exists in many major cities is because the police and the government are, for better or worse, not trusted to administer justice fairly and keep people safe. It’s not largely wanton violence of its own sake, it’s people acting as state actors by enforcing their rules of law and norms because the system is absent and because black and grey markets thrive and are often the dominant means of survival for many people. This reality exists in large part because of institutional racism and White supremacy. It exists because of redlining, employment discrimination, community policing. It exists because of housing segregation, racial covenants, sunset towns, and banking discrimination. Racism was the proximate cause for most of that. This fact doesn’t absolve criminals of guilt or responsibility, but it does make your claim false. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562/50 "2015-11-05T01:29:16Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > How exactly was the cop “cleared of racism”? What does that even mean? Sorry, I meant the shooting was declared justifiable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gus-savage-the-pitfall-of-abusing-racism-accuations/736562.md?page=2)