# Guys and creepiness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716 "2013-03-01T12:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/241 "2013-03-03T18:26:19Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Bikers and tattooed people have the same lament “A few bad seeds give us all a bad name”. Why isn’t this the case now? Why blame women for being wary of strange men? Doesn’t most of the fault here lie with law enforcement, which often offers self-defense courses to women? Or statisticians who routinely trot out numbers that demonstrate that males are far more likely to commit crimes? Surely the male criminals themselves ought to be maligned before wary women. You know those statsticians also say that men are much more likely to be the victims of violent crime. And every single category of violent crime, too. In America, thanks to the prison system, that includes rape. Both sexes are also more likely to commit crimes against men than women. So why should it be thought reasonable for women to hold a paranoid fear of every man until they learn that particular man is safe, when men don’t walk the streets in constant fear of death? In addition, women are far more likely to be victimised by people they know. Which is to say that when women are victims of violent crime the perpetrator is disproportionately likely to be known to the victim, the difference is actually caused not by women being in more danger from acquaintances but men being in more, much more, danger from strangers. So the man you’ve learned is safe is the one to look out for. A woman is never safer than when with a man, or men, she doesn’t know. As for why such women should be maligned, beyond their paranoia and cavalier diregard for the reality of the situation, beyond their perpetuating myths which make women afraid and men wrongly feared, a similar situation would be fear of black people. Black people are statistically more likely to commit and be victims of crimes. But I don’t carry a knife just in case I run into one and need to defend myself from his dark ways. Because I’m not a racist, let alone a violent and knife-wielding racist. But some people want to think armed sexist paranoiacs looking for any sign they should start stabbing, shooting or spraying are perfectly justified because they have vaginas, which actually makes them less justified. > [@](#): > > Last week CNN posted an article entitled “Beyond vomiting, how to prevent rape” Check out this quote: “The issue really is about men, who we know commit most sexual assaults, and how do you stop men from doing it, not how do you coach women to cleverly get out of situations of harm,” said Jackson Katz, author of “The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help,” and co-founder of Mentors in Violence Prevention, a program that teaches strategies for preventing gender violence through the bystander approach.” > > Katz isn’t female. What’s his agenda? Stupidity? Pandering? An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy even if you have an actual authority. What you’ve got there is a perfect stupid argument against the burglar alarm industry. Just train the thieves not to steal! Problem solved! ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/242 "2013-03-03T18:26:37Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Annoyance may be the most appropriate word to use. I think the outrage and vitriol comes as a reaction to the refusal of certain “pro-woman” arguers (for lack of a better term) to yield, declaring that these actions aren’t even faux pas and that the woman’s actions aren’t even merely negligible but completely justified. > > It’s not completely justified. It’s an overreaction. No, no “real” consequences come from any of these anecdotes but at least concede that every time a woman get into her company elevator or a stranger chats her up at the bus stop she reaches for the mace or the keys is an overreaction. > > Yes, men should compensate for the bad apples and the adage of better safe than sorry does apply, but it’s annoying. I’m sure that’s what a lot of guys in here are looking for. A pat on the back for being a good compensating soldier. It’s because we’re taught from an early age that bad things can happen in parking garages, elevators, sidewalks, etc. We’re taught to be on high alert, we’re taught that bad men can look like well-dressed, nice-looking good men (Ted Bundy, Scott Peterson) and it’s not our fault we can’t tell the good guys from the bad guys just by looking. Law enforcement, statistics, and personal experiences inform us that we are at a disadvantage merely by being smaller, slower, and weaker. It’s not personal, and if men choose to take it personally there really isn’t anything we can do other than say “sorry she profiled you incorrectly, buddy”. Is that sufficient? I’m guessing it’s not. I’m guessing that some of the men here would demand that all women everywhere ignore professional advice, ignore that nagging self-preservation urge, and assume the best about all men as well as keep self-defense measures to a mininum and welcome chatty strangers in all venues. But to me, it doesn’t seem prudent. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/243 "2013-03-03T18:31:31Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > First of all, it isn’t a “vanishingly improbable fear” > My own child (5 year old girl) was touched inappropriately by another child at school a few weeks ago, and yes sexual abuse/molestation can come from peers. Any unwanted touching or violation of private areas is molestation. But I did not overreact, I did not go on some crusade to find out which little boy did it or confront his parents, I let the school handle it. But I am still uncomfortable about it and upset that my daughter had to experience that. This same little boy just recently tried to kiss another little boy in front of the whole class, so there is obviously more going on than curiosity with this child and it sucks as a parent I can do little to nothing about it other than teach my children what is right and how to report things that happen to them. I am not trying to belittle this, but do you really think having a 5-year-old do something inappropriate to a child of the same age counts as “sexual molestation”. IMO that is just sexualising behaviour which is nothing of the sort. Yes it needs to be dealt with but equaling it with adult sex crimes seems way over the top. You have suffered from molestation and know others who have. I haven’t and don’t know anyone who has. Oh wait, when I was about 10 another slightly older boy tried to make me touch his genitals. Should I play the victim card over that and call it a sex crime, or should I consider it exactly what it was, a confused child doing something silly? ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/244 "2013-03-03T18:32:37Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Only if she pulls a gun? What if she calls the cops like in this link from page 1: > [http://www.news-journal.com/opinion/letters/letters-on-having-nothing-to-say-trashy-roads-mistaken-identity/article\_13fe229f-d657-5627-b453-be9b71a311dd.html](http://www.news-journal.com/opinion/letters/letters-on-having-nothing-to-say-trashy-roads-mistaken-identity/article_13fe229f-d657-5627-b453-be9b71a311dd.html) Of course I don’t respect cowardice or stupidity or outright lies. IF their had been reason to call the cops then fine. Whoever did it did not talk to the man or observe any signs of danger (that we know). That is lunacy and rarely encountered. That letter is a shame if true. It dispayed no strength, courage, or intelligence on the part of the police caller. Walking up to the man and engaging him in conversation or observing his behavior in relation to the grandson is reasonable behavior. As a grandfather I love to discuss my grandkids. Be careful. Come talk to me. It’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/245 "2013-03-03T18:40:31Z")
Missed the edit window: Anyway, this thread has got way off topic. The point is not “You should feel safe to leave your child in the care of any random stranger”, which of course would be stupid and irresponsible, whether that person was male or female. The original point was, men should not be made to feel uncomfortable _in public_ for being in the vicinity of a child to whom they have no connection, or to interact with said child in a normal societal manner. My daughter is only 18 months old, but as she gets older I hope I can teach her that, no, she shouldn’t go anywhere with strangers, but equally that she is not to be afraid of every damn person in the whole world. People are still allowed to talk to people. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/246 "2013-03-03T18:49:06Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s because we’re taught from an early age that bad things can happen in parking garages, elevators, sidewalks, etc. We’re taught to be on high alert, we’re taught that bad men can look like well-dressed, nice-looking good men (Ted Bundy, Scott Peterson) and it’s not our fault we can’t tell the good guys from the bad guys just by looking. Law enforcement, statistics, and personal experiences inform us that we are at a disadvantage merely by being smaller, slower, and weaker. It’s not personal, and if men choose to take it personally there really isn’t anything we can do other than say “sorry she profiled you incorrectly, buddy”. > > Is that sufficient? I’m guessing it’s not. I’m guessing that some of the men here would demand that all women everywhere ignore professional advice, ignore that nagging self-preservation urge, and assume the best about all men as well as keep self-defense measures to a mininum and welcome chatty strangers in all venues. But to me, it doesn’t seem prudent. Well, if you had just left it at “Sorry she profiled you incorrectly, buddy” it would be entirely sufficient. When you start invoking the names of serial killers, and legitimizing the behavior with evolutionary biology and police endorsement is where it starts to feel disingenuous. You don’t have to smile. You don’t have to be chatty. You just have to stand in the elevator like a normal person. ---
**Author:** ![eltro102](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@eltro102](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eltro102)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/247 "2013-03-03T18:50:24Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > The problem is that when an issue from _some_ men is expanded to include, _all_ men, ie: “All men are potentially rapists”. No, they really really aren’t and its offensive and off-base to say they are. yes they are, can you tell a rapist from a normal person? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/248 "2013-03-03T18:53:53Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I just have to point out that this doesn’t make any sense. If **Sailboat** wished to follow her, he could have just waited until her bus arrived, and got on after her. Not if, as was actually the case, she wasn’t even waiting for the bus. If we imagine that \*\*Sailboat \*\*wasn’t **Sailboat** but a rapist or other criminal who intended to make this woman his next victim, then he might have opened with an innocent-sounding question in order to find out what this woman was planning to do so he could decide how best to pursue her. Even if she had been waiting for a bus, she might have been suspicious if the man who got on right behind her was again right behind her when she got off…unless they’d already had a nice, friendly conversation in which he’d mentioned that he was “coincidentally” _also_ going to the same part of town. Like I said, I’m sure it sucks to be treated with suspicion when you’re just trying to be helpful, but I used to ride the bus a lot and I can’t remember a strange man ever asking me which bus I was waiting for. I don’t think I’d have gone right into “use your keys as a weapon” mode if this had happened, but I would have been uneasy. A stranger does not need to know which bus I am taking. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/249 "2013-03-03T18:54:45Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Well, if you had just left it at “Sorry she profiled you incorrectly, buddy” it would be entirely sufficient. When you start invoking the names of serial killers, and legitimizing the behavior with evolutionary biology and police endorsement is where it starts to feel disingenuous. > > You don’t have to smile. You don’t have to be chatty. You just have to stand in the elevator like a normal person. A normal person recognizes the irony of clinging for 23 years to a perceived threat when the woman in question reacted to a perceived threat for the duration of an elevator ride. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/250 "2013-03-03T19:00:06Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > A normal person recognizes the irony of clinging for 23 years to a perceived threat when the woman in question reacted to a perceived threat for the duration of an elevator ride. Right. Because he’s _clinging_ to it. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/251 "2013-03-03T19:02:37Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Like I said, I’m sure it sucks to be treated with suspicion when you’re just trying to be helpful, but I used to ride the bus a lot and I can’t remember a strange man ever asking me which bus I was waiting for. I don’t think I’d have gone right into “use your keys as a weapon” mode if this had happened, but I would have been uneasy. A stranger does not need to know which bus I am taking. I used to bus commute and people would ask all the time “Hey, did the 55 pass by here?” or “How long have you been waiting?” especially during commuting hours to estimate the wait time. (The buses rarely ran on time.) ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/252 "2013-03-03T19:03:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In the same way, I wouldn’t expect women who are worried about being raped to keep a close eye out on other women or on small children, because statistically speaking, if they’re assaulted by a stranger, it’s not going to be by another woman or a child. Women and children aren’t potential assaulters, in other words. Men, however, are. Its a sad state of affairs when you have to worry that 50% of everyone you meet may attack you. > [@Troppus](#): > > It’s because we’re taught from an early age that bad things can happen in parking garages, elevators, sidewalks, etc. We’re taught to be on high alert, we’re taught that bad men can look like well-dressed, nice-looking good men (Ted Bundy, Scott Peterson) and it’s not our fault we can’t tell the good guys from the bad guys just by looking. Law enforcement, statistics, and personal experiences inform us that we are at a disadvantage merely by being smaller, slower, and weaker. It’s not personal, and if men choose to take it personally there really isn’t anything we can do other than say “sorry she profiled you incorrectly, buddy”. Perhaps its a societal problem more than anything else. If American women _(I’m assuming your American)_ are brought up with such a high-level of fear when the circumstances don’t appear to justify it then surely thats not a good thing? I’m neither female nor American but I don’t think other societies have such an emphasis on the issue. But then isn’t their a certain scaremongering element in American media/society in general? Negative stories catch the attention more than positive stories. > [@eltro102](#): > > yes they are, can you tell a rapist from a normal person? A rapist is someone who has carried out the act of rape. Perhaps we could say that some people _perceive_ that all men are potential rapists rather than all men _are_ potential rapists. A small difference but an important one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/253 "2013-03-03T19:08:16Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Its a sad state of affairs when you have to worry that 50% of everyone you meet may attack you. It sure as shit is. And I’m sad for folks that have that worry. And I’m annoyed at a world that gives them that worry. What I’m not is, I’m not annoyed **at them** for having that worry. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/254 "2013-03-03T19:16:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It sure as shit is. And I’m sad for folks that have that worry. And I’m annoyed at a world that gives them that worry. > > What I’m not is, I’m not annoyed **at them** for having that worry. If you have a negative opinion of a section of the population, and one not founded in any sort of reality, then it behooves you to keep it to yourself. edited to add: generic “you” ---
**Author:** ![eltro102](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@eltro102](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eltro102)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/255 "2013-03-03T19:27:55Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > If you have a negative opinion of a section of the population, and one not founded in any sort of reality, then it behooves you to keep it to yourself. > > edited to add: generic “you” how it is unfounded in reality? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/256 "2013-03-03T19:38:56Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I used to bus commute and people would ask all the time “Hey, did the 55 pass by here?” or “How long have you been waiting?” especially during commuting hours to estimate the wait time. (The buses rarely ran on time.) Asking someone if the bus _you_ want has already been by is not the same thing as asking them which bus _they_ want. As I said in my first post in this thread, when people want to know if the #2 had been by already they will ask, they don’t wait for a stranger to ask them if they want the #2 and then tell them if it’s been by. Since **Sailboat** was at the bus stop before the woman walked up, she knew he wasn’t asking which bus she wanted in an attempt to find out whether his own bus had already been by. This woman wasn’t even standing at the bus stop next to him, she was 15’ away waiting to cross the street. **Sailboat** said “she went immediately into rape-defense mode” even though “what [he] said to her was helpful, not creepy”, but asking a stranger on the street questions about where she’s going IS kind of creepy. This woman couldn’t read his mind to find out his intentions. _We_ know that **Sailboat** was just trying to be helpful, but all she knew was that a man she’d never seen or spoken to before suddenly seemed curious about where she was going. She was right to consider this suspicious even though in reality **Sailboat** did not mean her any harm. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/257 "2013-03-03T19:42:17Z")
> [@eltro102](#): > > how it is unfounded in reality? Because the vast majority of men are not now, never have been and never will be rapists? And to believe that any given man is _potentially_ a rapist is a case of skewed perception over reality. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/258 "2013-03-03T19:44:27Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > So, [not in this country](http://www.misdefenseproducts.com/Pepper-Spray-Laws-Restrictions-sp-6.html), then. > > Pepper spray is a defensive weapon. It is legal to possess and use in a defensive capacity in all 50 states, in case you don’t want to click on the link. I’ve read your cite, and I don’t see the part where it says it’s ok to threaten people who’ve done nothing to you with pepper spray. Perhaps you could link to that specific part? It’s fine for you to possess it. It’s fine for you to use it in self defence. It’s not fine to walk around threatening any man you see with it, on the grounds that they are a potential rapist. And yes, again, holding it where someone can see you have it and are ready to use it is a threatening act. The hypocrisy here is stunning. You accuse all men of being threatening, despite the fact they’re not, and yet encourage women to _actually_ threaten men without cause. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/259 "2013-03-03T19:45:07Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > If you have a negative opinion of a section of the population, and one not founded in any sort of reality, then it behooves you to keep it to yourself. According to poking around online, there are something like 60,000 stranger rapes committed in the US in a year. How do you get from that to “not founded in any sort of reality”? For that matter, if you’re still going on about “negative opinion of a section of the population,” you’ve totally missed the point of the Queen of Spades analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/260 "2013-03-03T19:46:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s fine for you to possess it. It’s fine for you to use it in self defence. It’s not fine to walk around threatening any man you see with it, on the grounds that they are a potential rapist. And yes, again, holding it where someone can see you have it and are ready to use it is a threatening act. No, it’s really not. It’s a nonverbal if-then statement. Let me verbalize it for you: If you attack me, Then I will spray you. That’s not a threat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=14)