# Guys and creepiness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716 "2013-03-01T12:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/281 "2013-03-03T22:34:07Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I also never trusted boyfriends alone with my kid, because I think stats say single moms’ boyfriends are the most likely to molest kids. As much as I never thought any of them would do that, so would most other mothers who did leave their boyfriend to babysit and something did happen. Why would you go out with men that you can’t trust? What did your boyfriends think about this? One of my exes decided to became a single mom by choice after we broke up. When I visit, she has no qualms about my watching her kids while she has to step out for an errand or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/282 "2013-03-03T22:41:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you want me to modify my claim to say that women are between 4 and 50 times more likely to be raped by someone they know, I can do so, I don’t feel it affects my point. > > The serious question is, do you really think it’s worth making yourself and other women scared, and men offended, based on the 1 in 9,000 (per year) chance you will be raped by a stranger? Spending any time worrying about something that unlikely seems over the top, and taking any more than trivial precautions against it seems absurd, when there are so many greater risks out there. I agree, except to substitute “common sense” for “trivial”. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/283 "2013-03-03T22:51:36Z")
Yeah ladies. When will y’all stop taking rape so seriously. It like, basically never happens. Stop thinking about and worrying about it so much! ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/284 "2013-03-03T22:52:34Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > These kinds of stories make me sick to my stomach. As a gay man, this sort of thing is even worse because a lot of people still feel like gay people are all just waiting for their chance to molest children. I was going to say that I think this attitude is waning, but then… > [@pancakes3](#): > > I’m not saying you can’t have your fun but full fledged BF and you don’t trust him alone with your kid? I understand being overly cautious with strangers but… would you also not let **straight men** who you weren’t romantically involved with alone with your kid? (Bolding mine.) I see what you mean. When my two girls were growing up, I was keenly aware that most molestation is committed by family members or close family friends. I was also pretty sure that none of my own family members or close friends - gay or straight - was a child molester. However, at the same time, I kept an unobtrusive eye out for any (for lack of a better word) creepy behavior. My brother and my brother-in-law both took their nieces out now and then, and I wasn’t afraid to leave my children alone with them on the rare occasion either of them was willing to babysit, but if they’d shown signs of grooming them, I was prepared to pay attention. For what it’s worth, I was no more on the lookout with gay friends (male or female) than with straight ones. Two of my kids’ best friends lived with their single dad, and once we’d gotten to know each other, I was perfectly comfortable allowing them to stay with him, much more comfortable than I would have been letting them stay with friends whose mothers - or whose mothers’ boyfriends - I didn’t know as well. But, yes, I was more alert to the dangers of leaving them with men than with women. As for teenaged babysitters, I just assumed all of them, regardless of sex, were potentially unreliable for a variety of reasons. I mean, _teenagers_! > [@pancakes3](#): > > - I used to tutor little kids (ages 6-12) and the female tutors at the center I worked at would routinely hug and kiss on the cheek. Now, I would never be inclined to do that because it’s in my nature, but the double standard was obvious that I would never be able to get away with that as a guy. > > - My friend was at the supermarket and there was a toddler crying in one of the aisles. He tried to be a good samaritan and took the kid up to customer service but halfway there the mom ran up and ranted about the nerve of him. She knew that he wasn’t trying to do anything wrong but she was just incensed (irrationally so) and just stormed off in a huff. He wasn’t holding the kid or anything, maybe holding his hand at the most. > > - There’s a dad at my church who insists that all the kids call him by his first name, and he’s totally “with it” and is facebook friends with a lot of the kids. There are also a lot of hip moms who do the same thing, but it’s just a bit more weird when a guy tries to buddy up with the teens group and is very huggy with the 15 year old girls. > [@Incubus](#): > > Tutoring- You’re telling me female tutors would kiss 12 year olds? :eek: because I find that kind of creepy. When I worked as a tutor, they said we could give high fives, but we shouldn’t be touching the kids- this applied to men and women employees. I had kids run up and hug me but since I never initiated it nobody gave me dirty looks. In 5 years of working with children I never had anybody complain about my behavior (or gender). > > -Regarding grocery store kid, mom was probably pissy out of embarassment. Think about it- you cant find your kid, then some strange dude has her asking, “is this yours?” The kids hysterical, and you’re standing there looking like Mother Of The Year in front of everybody. I think the hostility was probably an ‘out’ for the lady to deal with misplacing her kid. I think it’s important to look at the examples here in light not so much of whether it’s a man or a woman doing the interacting, but whether the interaction’s appropriate. I don’t think it’s creepy for caretakers of either sex to let five-year-olds sit on their laps, but it’s very definitely inappropriate to let a twelve-year-old do the same. And although it is more likely that a man will be suspected of bad intentions if he’s getting overly chummy with tweens, I’d also look askance at a woman who did the same. It’s all about the boundaries. I’ve also had moms look at me funny when I interacted with their children in a public place, and I’m a woman of a certain age, who once might have been given a societal pass. I think that a lot of people are getting less accepting of the idea that we _are_ a society and are thinking of their families as isolated pods who need to be guarded from all outsiders. It is, obviously, still worse for men in the same situation, but it seems like people are just getting less and less tolerant of strangers in general. > [@Steophan](#): > > One big problem is that news reports and fiction generally focus on the sensational, not the mundane. Women and children getting abused by their partners or parents, or other acquaintances, is regrettably so common it’s not news. Children being snatched, or women being grabbed in a dark alley\*, is rare enough to be reported, and the fact that there are more reports of these, and they get a much higher profile, leads people to wrongly assess the risk. > > \*The exception to this is groping, which is very often done by strangers. **If people really want to debate whether pepper spraying someone who gropes you is legitimate, go for it.** As far as I’m concerned, the answer is that it’s probably technically illegal, but no-one would have sympathy for the bloke, and no-one would be convicted, or even charged, for it. (Bolding mine.) The overall point, that the rarer crimes get more coverage, is sound, but I just had to point out this out: “groping” is a physical assault, and we are well within our rights to make a vigorous and physical defense to it. If someone rubs up on me or grabs my ass, the law doesn’t require me to wait to see if he’s going to follow that up with a more severe assault before I hit him (with pepper spray or otherwise). Just to be clear, I’m not talking about people bumping into women on a crowded train here; “groping” isn’t casual contact. > [@Disposable Hero](#): > > You know, snideness really isn’t helping your cause. And really while every single one of those 21’000 incidents is horrific and deserves to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law it means 174’980’000 million _(approx, I don’t know the USA’s population)_ American women _weren’t_ assaulted. I guess its a matter of how you personally are willing to weigh levels of risk, I would respectfully suggest that the level of threat doesn’t correspond to the level of fear that it appears to engender. Although I do agree that the level of fear many women feel isn’t proportional to the actual threat, those 174,980,000 women weren’t assaulted **in that specific year**. If a woman was raped in 2011, her own personal counter is not going to be reset just because it didn’t happen this year, and her friends aren’t going to forget that it happened to someone they know. It’s a cumulative effect. I have a somewhat higher threshold for fear than the average woman, warranted or not, because I’m more physically imposing than the average woman (and taller than the average man). Whether or not my size has an actual protective effect, I’ve never been sexually assaulted (knock wood), and I feel a level of confidence that some of my female friends do not because of it. This results in me being much more friendly to strangers than I might have been otherwise, and although a few men have, in the past, taken that friendliness to mean that they’re justified in making inappropriate comments, it’s never gone beyond that, so my overall impression is not that all men are potential predators, it’s that some people are assholes. So, yeah, I do think that some people are afraid of men in general, even though those men are just trying to go about their own business, and I do think it’s wrong. I think the best defense against this is for men to continue to go about their own business without harming women or children, and for reasonable people of any sex to continue to be reasonable. Maybe if we just keep on trying to set a good example instead of reacting to the overreaction, we can help calm everyone down a little. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/285 "2013-03-03T23:04:39Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > So, yeah, I do think that some people are afraid of men in general, even though those men are just trying to go about their own business, and I do think it’s wrong. I think the best defense against this is for men to continue to go about their own business without harming women or children, and for reasonable people of any sex to continue to be reasonable. Maybe if we just keep on trying to set a good example instead of reacting to the overreaction, we can help calm everyone down a little. Need a like button for that entire post. Well done! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/286 "2013-03-03T23:10:12Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > (Bolding mine.) The overall point, that the rarer crimes get more coverage, is sound, but I just had to point out this out: “groping” is a physical assault, and we are well within our rights to make a vigorous and physical defense to it. If someone rubs up on me or grabs my ass, the law doesn’t require me to wait to see if he’s going to follow that up with a more severe assault before I hit him (with pepper spray or otherwise). Just to be clear, I’m not talking about people bumping into women on a crowded train here; “groping” isn’t casual contact. Legally, the defence usually needs to be proportionate to the threat, and you are only allowed to respond to a threat, not get revenge for an attack. So, theoretically, if someone grabbed your arse, then made it clear they were no further threat to you, you would not be entitled to spray them. In practice, even in this somewhat unlikely situation, I highly doubt any jury would convict. In general, if someone has assaulted you, you would be correct to assume they are a continuing threat, and be entitled to defend yourself proportionately. Not so much, sadly, in the UK (where I am), where people are regularly charged with offences for defending themselves. But that’s another debate. To make it very clear, I am in favour of everyone’s right to self defence, and their right to walk the street (or take an elevator) unmolested. No-one should be threatened or assaulted. That no-one includes men, who should not be threatened or accused without reason. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/287 "2013-03-03T23:24:46Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > Although I do agree that the level of fear many women feel isn’t proportional to the actual threat, those 174,980,000 women weren’t assaulted **in that specific year**. If a woman was raped in 2011, her own personal counter is not going to be reset just because it didn’t happen this year, and her friends aren’t going to forget that it happened to someone they know. It’s a cumulative effect. True, though I’m not a statistician I would suggest that the chances of a serious sexual assault over the course of a woman’s lifetime while higher is still not proportinate to the level of fear that seems to be engendered. Again I’m wondering if this is an American thing, I’m going to have to have a _(carefully worded!)_ discussion with my female friends to see if this is as big a concern over here, it doesn’t appear to be. > [@InternetLegend](#): > > I have a somewhat higher threshold for fear than the average woman, warranted or not, because I’m more physically imposing than the average woman (and taller than the average man). Whether or not my size has an actual protective effect, I’ve never been sexually assaulted (knock wood), and I feel a level of confidence that some of my female friends do not because of it. This results in me being much more friendly to strangers than I might have been otherwise, and although a few men have, in the past, taken that friendliness to mean that they’re justified in making inappropriate comments, it’s never gone beyond that, so my overall impression is not that all men are potential predators, it’s that some people are assholes. > > So, yeah, I do think that some people are afraid of men in general, even though those men are just trying to go about their own business, and I do think it’s wrong. I think the best defense against this is for men to continue to go about their own business without harming women or children, and for reasonable people of any sex to continue to be reasonable. Maybe if we just keep on trying to set a good example instead of reacting to the overreaction, we can help calm everyone down a little. Good post, agreed. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/288 "2013-03-03T23:47:16Z")
I enjoyed your post too, IL. FWIW, When I asked my sister about discrepancies of behavior between men and women to my sister, she countered with, “What do you mean, like holding hands? Going to the bathroom together?” which kind of threw me off balance, but still an interesting point. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/289 "2013-03-04T00:08:55Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Does clutching it to your chest constitute “showing off” or “displaying in a manner that communicates a threat”? Serious question. Because you guys are stretching the term “brandishing” to the limits of believability. Yes. You are displaying your weapon and your intent to use it. In fact, the victim could then plausibly claim self-defense, because you drew your weapon when there was no threat. I know of no organization (police, security or otherwise) that would allow a weapon to be unholstered before a threat appeared. If I did the same thing with a gun or a knife, no one would argue that I was communicating a threat. Look at it this way: If a lawyer asked why you drew your pepper spray and clutched it your chest, what would you say? Because it was warm? Because you like how it smelled? Of course not. Your intent was to demonstrate that you had a weapon and could use it. There is no other explanation. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/290 "2013-03-04T00:30:01Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Yes. You are displaying your weapon and your intent to use it. In fact, the victim could then plausibly claim self-defense, because you drew your weapon when there was no threat. I know of no organization (police, security or otherwise) that would allow a weapon to be unholstered before a threat appeared. If I did the same thing with a gun or a knife, no one would argue that I was communicating a threat. > > Look at it this way: If a lawyer asked why you drew your pepper spray and clutched it your chest, what would you say? Because it was warm? Because you like how it smelled? Of course not. Your intent was to demonstrate that you had a weapon and could use it. There is no other explanation. Since pepper spray is a DEFENSIVE WEAPON, the explanation is to “have it accessible in the event of an attack”. It is not a knife. It is not a gun. Stop trying to twist the story to sound so much more threatening if only she were holding something different than what she was. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/291 "2013-03-04T00:50:49Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Since pepper spray is a DEFENSIVE WEAPON, the explanation is to “have it accessible in the event of an attack”. Nonsense, pepper spray works just fine as a aggressive weapon. If you walk up to someone and spray it in their face for fun, is that “defensive”? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/292 "2013-03-04T00:51:29Z")
Is that what happened? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/293 "2013-03-04T01:28:33Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Is that what happened? No, nor did I even imply that. I was pointing out the silliness of calling pepper spray a “defensive weapon”. About the only genuine “defensive weapon” I can think of would be an antimissile system like Patriot missiles. Anything else is only defensive if you use it that way. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/294 "2013-03-04T01:34:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, nor did I even imply that. I was pointing out the silliness of calling pepper spray a “defensive weapon”. About the only genuine “defensive weapon” I can think of would be an antimissile system like Patriot missiles. Anything else is only defensive if you use it that way. Oh really? So it’s almost as if the situation is important when considering context, as to whether it was being used in a threatening manner. Huh. So maybe if she was clutching it to her chest, and not “waving it around” or “spraying someone in the face for fun”, we can infer it was intended for defensive purposes. It is a defensive weapon. All the states which permit its usage permit it in a defensive capacity. It was created to be used in the case of an attack. It’s pretty clear that a woman with pepper spray is in possession of it for defensive purposes, not to go on the offensive wildly spraying people in the faces. I’d say “don’t be stupid” but, well. That’s a lot to ask, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/295 "2013-03-04T02:32:12Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > It’s pretty clear that a woman with pepper spray is in possession of it for defensive purposes, not to go on the offensive wildly spraying people in the faces. “Defensive purposes” as defined by someone with a paranoid fear of the opposite sex. Which tends to be pretty indistinguishable from _offensive_ purposes. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/296 "2013-03-04T03:15:08Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Yes. You are displaying your weapon and your intent to use it. In fact, the victim could then plausibly claim self-defense, because you drew your weapon when there was no threat. I know of no organization (police, security or otherwise) that would allow a weapon to be unholstered before a threat appeared. If I did the same thing with a gun or a knife, no one would argue that I was communicating a threat. > > Look at it this way: If a lawyer asked why you drew your pepper spray and clutched it your chest, what would you say? Because it was warm? Because you like how it smelled? Of course not. Your intent was to demonstrate that you had a weapon and could use it. There is no other explanation. People walk around with un-holstered guns all the time in the US. It’s been in the news a lot lately. I’m not saying I like it, but it happens and it’s legal. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/297 "2013-03-04T03:15:27Z")
You know, both sides have a point here. Women do have a reason to be afraid of sexual assault and men do have a reason to be offended by the womens perception of sexual assault. This isn’t a black and white issue. So both sides should stop pretending like they are “right.” Sooner that happens, the sooner we can start to look for solutions. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/298 "2013-03-04T03:42:10Z")
So, some women are overly paranoid about male violence and some men are overly paranoid about female entrapment using the legal system. I can just imagine the beautiful things that happen when such people tangle with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/299 "2013-03-04T03:52:39Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > So, some women are overly paranoid about male violence and some men are overly paranoid about female entrapment using the legal system. I can just imagine the beautiful things that happen when such people tangle with each other. It’s only ever actually occurred once. Ever hear of Chernobyl? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/300 "2013-03-04T03:57:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Legally, the defence usually needs to be proportionate to the threat, and you are only allowed to respond to a threat, not get revenge for an attack. So, theoretically, if someone grabbed your arse, then made it clear they were no further threat to you, you would not be entitled to spray them. In practice, even in this somewhat unlikely situation, I highly doubt any jury would convict. Especially because there is no convincing way to prove that the person is stopping at that and not going any further. And grabbing a woman’s ass, although it may sound like no big deal to a male, is a mild form of sexual assault, or at absolute best plain old physical assault. It’s scary and intimidating when it’s done to you as a woman, and not something like you see on TV where the woman just laughs it off, all in good fun. Simple offensive actions can be males feeling you out to see how you will react to escalation, leading up to the worst. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=16)