# Guys and creepiness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716 "2013-03-01T12:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/481 "2013-03-09T18:48:38Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Define “monster”. I do get treated as though I’m a registered sex offender. In these situations, I’m doing something that (in my experience) a woman would not be hassled for. But you aren’t likely to be hassled for dates by the opposite sex while going for a run or a hike, right? When I go for a run or a hike, I’m doing something that men wouldn’t be hassled for. Each gender role comes with certain perks and disadvantages. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/482 "2013-03-09T19:12:21Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > And I can’t use your definition of “objective reality” to defend my own use of pepper spray on men who may have simply been socially retarded and felt that grabbing my arm was the best way to get my attention. One of them was shouting “Don’t ignore me!!” when he rushed me and grabbed my arm. I will never know if he intended to hurt me, You attacked someone for grabbing your arm to get your attention? Congratulations, you are guilty of battery. Touching your arm is neither a threat nor an attack in and of itself, regardless of the gender of someone who does it. As you so correctly state, you have no idea if he intended to hurt you. You MAY NOT attack anyone, either with a weapon or your hands, if you do not know this. You’ve already had representative laws cited to you on this. Do not brandish weapons, and do not attack people who haven’t threatened you. That’s the law. Stop being so fucking paranoid, and assuming all men are potential rapists, they’re not. That’s not the law, but it’s been shown to you in this thread just how unlikely it is to happen to you, and I feel quite comfortable saying it’s good advice, and will improve everyone’s life, including your own, if you heed it. But regardless of that, you do not have the right to threaten and attack other people based solely on your irrational beliefs. I can only hope that next time you attack someone, they press charges and you are convicted. I hope the same if anyone attacks you, of course, but you’ve already made it clear you’d rather take matters into your own hands than involve the law. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/483 "2013-03-09T19:17:53Z")
So someone yanking me forcefully by the arm and menacingly saying, “DON’T IGNORE ME!” isn’t any type of threat, but a woman holding a can of pepper spray is a threat so serious that she is due a serious beating by a man until he feels safe again. Go on. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/484 "2013-03-09T19:18:44Z")
How exactly is a guy assaulting you not an attack? Grabbing your arm is totally assault. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/485 "2013-03-09T19:23:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You attacked someone for grabbing your arm to get your attention? Congratulations, you are guilty of battery. Touching your arm is neither a threat nor an attack in and of itself, regardless of the gender of someone who does it. This is incorrect. A person running after you and grabbing you is committing battery, not the person trying to get away. > [@](#): > > As you so correctly state, you have no idea if he intended to hurt you. You MAY NOT attack anyone, either with a weapon or your hands, if you do not know this. Yeah she should probably pull out some coffee and have a nice chat with this man, to see what he wants. Or, you know, maybe people don’t chase you and grab at your body if they just want to talk about international politics. > [@](#): > > Stop being so fucking paranoid, and assuming all men are potential rapists, they’re not. That’s not the law, but it’s been shown to you in this thread just how unlikely it is to happen to you, and I feel quite comfortable saying it’s good advice, and will improve everyone’s life, including your own, if you heed it. Dude, just stop. Stop. You are showing your ass here. You are telling a rape victim, who has been assaulted 3 times during her runs to “stop being so fucking paranoid” and how “unlikely it is to happen to you”. You don’t get to judge her level of risk. She does. She has seemingly accurately judged it, given the fact that she’s used a defensive weapon in the event of strange men grabbing at her body three times. Just stop. > [@](#): > > But regardless of that, you do not have the right to threaten and attack other people based solely on your irrational beliefs. I can only hope that next time you attack someone, they press charges and you are convicted. I hope the same if anyone attacks you, of course, but you’ve already made it clear you’d rather take matters into your own hands than involve the law. Involve the law? When you’re running in a park at night, she’s literally not supposed to protect herself when strangers grab her because she’s not permitted to “take matters into her own hands”? You’ve got to be fucking kidding. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/486 "2013-03-09T19:24:18Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > How exactly is a guy assaulting you not an attack? Grabbing your arm is totally assault. I’m sure they are imagining a nice man in the library, walking up and gently tapping **Troppus** on the shoulder with a polite, “Pardon me, ma’am.” Out of nowhere, shebeast **Troppus** whirled around, unleashing a stream of bear mace directly into the kind man’s eyes, while simultaneously burning her bra. Here’s the thing, I’ve had enough guys yank me pretty goddamned violently by the arm after I ignored them to know exactly what type of encounter she’s describing there. I, too, have been yanked, pushed, and threatened for not returning a dude’s misplaced advances. In the best cases, they usually just call me a fat bitch for ignoring them, in the worst, they get genuinely offended and try to intimidate me by grabbing me and shouting shit like, “DON’T IGNORE ME!” My experience is not unique. Not in this thread. Not on this board. And not in this world. But hey, if I carry pepper spray to protect myself, I am due a beating by a man for insulting him and making _him_ feel unsafe. Yet no alternatives have yet been presented as a means for us to protect ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/487 "2013-03-09T19:37:44Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Here’s the thing, I’ve had enough guys yank me pretty goddamned violently by the arm after I ignored them to know exactly what type of encounter she’s describing there. I, too, have been yanked, pushed, and threatened for not returning a dude’s misplaced advances. In the best cases, they usually just call me a fat bitch for ignoring them, in the worst, they get genuinely offended and try to intimidate me by grabbing me and shouting shit like, “DON’T IGNORE ME!” You know what? I believe you, because you’re not acting like a paranoid nutcase in this thread. An attack such as you describe is just that, and is battery. Simply touching you on the arm is _not_, and neither is shouting “DON’T IGNORE ME”, unless of course it’s followed with a threat. Say you touched my arm to attract my attention, would you be ok if I spun round and punched you? If not, put your pepper spray in your back until you’re actually threatened. This whole exchange is a pretty good summation of the whole issue in this thread, though. A man could not _possibly_ innocently want to attract a woman’s attention, they are only ever going to grab them and attack them, so no matter how benignly they attempt to do so, it’s fine to pepper spray them. Hell, even being in a lift with a penis is enough to allow women to threaten the bearer of said genitalia. Which is fucking ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/488 "2013-03-09T19:38:13Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Okay, two can play this game: > > Laywer: “Why did you take the pepper spray out of the woman’s hands?” > Man: “I was defending myself. I was afraid she might attack me.” > Lawyer: “Did you harm the woman?” > Man: “No.” > Lawyer: “Did you say you were going to harm the woman?” > Man: “No.” > Lawyer: “Did you move towards the woman?” > Man: “No.” > Lawyer: “Did you do anything at all to threaten the woman?” > Man: “No. I just wanted her to leave me alone.” > > It works both ways. No, it doesn’t work your way at all. Taking the pepper spray out of her hand involves touching her, which _is_ assault. It would probably also constitute battery. And your man is obviously lying - how could he grab the spray without moving towards her? As the incident was described, the woman was cowering away from **Chimera** , which is about as non-threatening as can be imagined. This notion that men should be desperately afraid of women who are trying to be left alone is grotesque. If you don’t bother people, men or women, they are much less likely to pepper spray you. Still waiting for that cite of someone who was convicted of assault for cowering away from a stranger clutching pepper spray to her chest. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/489 "2013-03-09T19:40:30Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > My experience is not unique. Not in this thread. Not on this board. And not in this world. But hey, if I carry pepper spray to protect myself, I am due a beating by a man for insulting him and making _him_ feel unsafe. Yet no alternatives have yet been presented as a means for us to protect ourselves. Oh, and this? I’m well aware how common sexual and violent assault is - I’m the one who’s provided many of the statistics on it. That’s why I’ve repeatedly said it makes sense to carry a weapon, and use it when threatened. It’s those last two words - when threatened - that you seem to consider a massive attack on your freedom, presumably because you feel women have the right to threaten innocent men, but not vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/490 "2013-03-09T19:41:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Taking the pepper spray out of her hand involves touching her, which _is_ assault. It would probably also constitute battery. Not if she’s threatening you with it, in that case it’s self defence. And admirably restrained self defence, as it’s almost certainly the minimum force possible. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/491 "2013-03-09T19:44:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This whole exchange is a pretty good summation of the whole issue in this thread, though. A man could not _possibly_ innocently want to attract a woman’s attention, they are only ever going to grab them and attack them, so no matter how benignly they attempt to do so, it’s fine to pepper spray them. Hell, even being in a lift with a penis is enough to allow women to threaten the bearer of said genitalia. Hey, there’s that fun strawman again! You guys are really good at that in this thread, go figure The guy didn’t innocently tap her on the shoulder her-- he grabbed her by the arm and shouted, “DON’T IGNORE ME!” at her. And yes, ‘don’t ignore me’ most definitely can be a thread because of the implied second half of the sentence that is left out (‘or else.’). Sure, one can innocently say ‘Don’t ignore me!’ but if you’re yanking a stranger by the arm and shouting that at them, it’s really not innocent. But please, carry on telling us how we believe all men are rapists and attackers, just waiting to dick slap us. That’s definitely the position we’re arguing here. And I ask _again_: if mace isn’t an appropriate method of protection, what is? We’ve laid out pretty clearly that for those of us posting here, our personal histories show that we need some way to protect ourselves. Mace is apparently demeaning to men and just flashing it is enough for us to warrant being attacked until the man feels safe again. So, what would be a better, more appropriate form of protection? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/492 "2013-03-09T19:45:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not if she’s threatening you with it, in that case it’s self defence. And admirably restrained self defence, as it’s almost certainly the minimum force possible. So holding it in her hand is not defensive, but actively taking something off of another person’s body is? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/493 "2013-03-09T19:47:43Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > So holding it in her hand is not defensive, but actively taking something off of another person’s body is? It’s amazing how basically every primary action by a guy is “defensive” and every defensive action by a woman is “threatening.” ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/494 "2013-03-09T19:48:28Z")
You’re wrong, **Steophan**. He assaulted me in the is the most public and widely used and well-lit park in the city, full of families and little kids on a Sunday morning. This guy was on a bike and had been following me for two miles. First catcalling, then riding alongside me, and making comments about my personal safety. He said “you should let me escort you, there are some crazy men on this trail.” “Aren’t you scared?” I asked him several times to leave me alone, and he continued to weave in and out of oncoming joggers and bikes in order to stay right on top of me while chattering things about the danger I was in and making comments about my appearance. After asking him several times to leave me alone, I ignored him. When I finally got back to my car, I was shaking so badly I couldn’t get the key in the door. There was a truck parked in such a way that I was blocked in my parking space (curb in front of my tires, pulled in across the corner of my spot so I couldn’t back up). He tossed his bike in the back of that truck and yanked my arm away from my car before I could unlock it, spun me away from the car and shouted “Don’t ignore me”. I realized the vehicle blocking mine was his truck, and that he was aware of what I drove and blocked me in on purpose and came looking for me. After I sprayed the pepper spray in his direction, he jumped in the truck and backed out before I or any of the witnesses could get his tag number. This was in 98 or 99, didn’t have a cell phone yet or I would have called the police as soon as he started following me on the trail. I was so shaken up I just wanted to go home and didn’t come back to that park for a year. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/495 "2013-03-09T19:50:21Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > It’s amazing how basically every primary action by a guy is “defensive” and every defensive action by a woman is “threatening.” You can’t hold something in your hand without it being “brandishing in a threatening manner” but if you want to keep it in your pocket (where it will be useless) that’s okay. And a man is allowed to run after you, grab you, yell at you, and you still have to make very sure of his intentions before you take your mace out of your pocket… …and even then, he might take it away from you, because you were threatening him with it, but it was just in self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/496 "2013-03-09T19:51:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not if she’s threatening you with it, in that case it’s self defence. And admirably restrained self defence, as it’s almost certainly the minimum force possible. The woman in the incident described was not threatening anyone. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/497 "2013-03-09T19:53:13Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > So holding it in her hand is not defensive, but actively taking something off of another person’s body is? Finally, you understand. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/498 "2013-03-09T19:55:43Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > You can’t hold something in your hand without it being “brandishing in a threatening manner” but if you want to keep it in your pocket (where it will be useless) that’s okay. And a man is allowed to run after you, grab you, yell at you, and you still have to make very sure of his intentions before you take your mace out of your pocket… > > …and even then, he might take it away from you, because you were threatening him with it, but it was just in self defense. Again, yes, you are getting it. If they threaten you, by all means spray them, if they don’t, leave it in your pocket. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/499 "2013-03-09T19:59:45Z")
And by your definition, holding an item in your hand is threatening, while chasing you, grabbing your body, and yelling at you is not. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/500 "2013-03-09T20:03:14Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I was so shaken up I just wanted to go home and didn’t come back to that park for a year. I’m sorry that happened to you. I believe you used your spray at the right time, when he actually threatened and attacked you. This situation is different from what we’ve been talking about, which is feeling threatened by any passing man. This man did plenty to suggest he would become a threat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=26)