# Guys and creepiness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716 "2013-03-01T12:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/501 "2013-03-09T20:05:37Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > And by your definition, holding an item in your hand is threatening, while chasing you, grabbing your body, and yelling at you is not. Nope, never said that. I said following, touching your arm, and speaking to you is not a threat. Do you see the distinction? It sounds like you, and others, do not. I have said, many times, that one may respond to an actual threat. What you, and others, want is the right to pre-judge who may become threatening, and act on that. It’s not the same thing, it’s not acceptable, and it probably constitutes an illegal attack in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/502 "2013-03-09T20:09:03Z")
My, you’re pretty determined to downplay the words! “Chasing” becomes “following”, “grabbing” becomes “touching” and “yelling” becomes “speaking”. Further, where you’ve all changed the words of the person telling the story about the lady in the elevator, “holding” turns into “brandishing”. I’m going to take the word of the person who was actually there, over the guy who’s subtly changing her words to much less violent and dramatic ones for the purpose of proving his point that she acted irrationally and in disproportionate response to the threat that was posed. You keep on trying to change the words of the story to make it fit what you’d rather it be, though. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/503 "2013-03-09T20:13:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This situation is different from what we’ve been talking about, which is feeling threatened by any passing man. This man did plenty to suggest he would become a threat. No dear, this is the _exact_ situation the rest of us are talking about. You, on the other hand, have constructed some absurd one in your head that you’ve decided to try to argue in favor while the rest of us discuss reality. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/504 "2013-03-09T20:21:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, never said that. I said following, touching your arm, and speaking to you is not a threat. Do you see the distinction? It sounds like you, and others, do not. > > I have said, many times, that one may respond to an actual threat. What you, and others, want is the right to pre-judge who may become threatening, and act on that. It’s not the same thing, it’s not acceptable, and it probably constitutes an illegal attack in some cases. Following me, shouting demands for my attention and grabbing my arm after I said “please leave me alone” is not only threatening, it’s assault. I don’t care to wait until I’m beaten or restrained before I take measures to protect myself. Even if I had never been assaulted, followed, attacked or afraid in my life, I’d still carry pepper spray for stray dogs. It’s a personal protection device at best, a warning to others at worst. But the presence of pepper spray in the open is not a threat to men. It’s relatively foolproof non-lethal common sense measure recommended by most public service officers. I give it very little thought, and nearly every male and female I see on a bike or running is also carrying it at the ready. I don’t know what spooked the elevator woman, and it would have been foolish to consider spraying it in an elevator. **Chimera** should have reported her if he felt she was a threat to his safety. But her fearful display 23 years ago is not evidence that feminists everywhere consider all men a clear and present danger. It’s one anecdote easily discountable by the application of an anecdote wherein pepper spray was rightfully and legally used to prevent an attack. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/505 "2013-03-09T20:26:20Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > But her fearful display 23 years ago is not evidence that feminists everywhere consider all men a clear and present danger. It’s one anecdote easily discountable by the application of an anecdote wherein pepper spray was rightfully and legally used to prevent an attack. It’s also fascinating that the men in this thread have grabbed onto this one incident from 23 years ao and not let it go, while countless women have given tons of more frequent and more recent examples that are hand waived away. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/506 "2013-03-09T20:39:20Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > It’s also fascinating that the men in this thread have grabbed onto this one incident from 23 years ao and not let it go, while countless women have given tons of more frequent and more recent examples that are hand waived away. And telling that my previous statement about heroes was ignored. Each and every time I’ve been startled, cursed, grabbed or followed a hero has stepped in to help. The people who ran to help when that guy grabbed me in the parking lot were all three men. Each time I’ve had the occasion to ask a security guard to escort me to my car, each time I’ve asked my significant other to help me get rid of a persistent and offensive suitor: that hero has been a man. Sometimes I asked a man for help, sometimes that male hero was observant and saw someone in trouble and stepped in without being asked. The police officer who gave me my first can of pepper spray and some self-defense tips: a man. My dad, my wonderful ex-boyfriend, my husband: all heroes who would rush to help anyone in trouble, all men. The hero is much more common than the rare creep. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/507 "2013-03-09T20:43:49Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > It’s also fascinating that the men in this thread have grabbed onto this one incident from 23 years ao and not let it go, while countless women have given tons of more frequent and more recent examples that are hand waived away. That incident has been brought up and discussed as often by the female posters in this thread as the male. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/508 "2013-03-09T22:41:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You attacked someone for grabbing your arm to get your attention? Congratulations, you are guilty of battery. Touching your arm is neither a threat nor an attack in and of itself, regardless of the gender of someone who does it. Why do you re-word “grabbing” as “touching” in the next sentence? You subtly moved the goalposts. Grabbing my arm IS a threat and IS an attack. Touching (almost certainly, depending on the circumstances) is NOT. But **Troppus** said “grabbed,” and in the context of an aggravated person yelling at her coincidental to such grabbing, so why don’t we stick to what people actually wrote and not re-word it as “touched?” > [@](#): > > Stop being so fucking paranoid, and assuming all men are potential rapists, they’re not. (shrugs) Rape aside, no male who has ever grabbed my arm while yelling at me (barring rock climbing or martial arts training) has ever meant anything good by it. Never, in 40+ years. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/509 "2013-03-10T02:40:18Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I’m so sick of hearing how “clutching it to your chest” or whatever is not a threat. By law, the weapon cannot leave the holster unless you are justified in using it. Pepper spray is a weapon. Yes, you are legally allowed to possess it. No, you may not take it out of the holster unless you are legally justified in using it. > [@me](#): > > Also almost certainly bullshit. Please quote the law you’re referring to. > [@solosam](#): > > Here’s an example that will suffice: > > [http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/bclc/crimweb/bboard/Assault%20in%20Crime%20and%20Tort.pdf](http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/bclc/crimweb/bboard/Assault%20in%20Crime%20and%20Tort.pdf) > > Canadian Criminal Code > PART VIII : OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON AND REPUTATION > Assault > > 1. (1) A person commits an assault when (a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly; > > (b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or **causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose** ; or > > This is exactly what I am talking about. If you pull out a weapon (pepper spray, taser, gun, knife, makes no difference) you have made me believe that you intend to apply force against me. Since I have a legal right to be in the place, and I have given absolutely no indication that I was a threat to you, you have committed assault by brandishing your weapon. This is an incredibly weak cite; it does not cite your claim, which is that it’s illegal to take pepper spray out of its holster unless you’re justified in using it. You’ve instead cited the assaultlaws that we’re all well aware of and tried, with zero success, to convince us that unholstering pepper spray is covered by those laws. First, that’s a separate ridiculous point you’ve made, not the one I asked for a cite for. Second, if you want to provide backup for that ridiculous point, merely repeating your claim that it’s assault, and offering us the legal definition of assault, begs the question. > [@](#): > > If there is anyone on the board that doesn’t understand this problem, please answer for me the following question, that I already discussed above. Say I sued you for assault, and my lawyer asked the question: > > Lawyer: “When you drew your weapon, did you intend the threaten the plaintiff?” > Woman: “I did not.” > Lawyer: “So why did you draw your weapon?” > Woman: “Ummmmmm…” > > What possible answer is there? **Shodan** provided one (and I can’t believe he and I are on the same side of an issue. Not that there’s anything wrong with that!). His answer was that “I was afraid.” Two more possible answers: “I wanted to have the pepper spray immediately at hand in case I was attacked.” “I wanted to display my capacity for self-defense.” You might think that this last one is a threat, but you’d be wrong. A threat of the sort covered by the assault law says, “I can and will do something to you that is against the law for me to do to you.” Self-defense isn’t against the law, so saying, “I can and will defend myself against an attack from you” isn’t a threat. This thread is shocking. Edit: Good grief. I just followed your link, and hey everyone, look at what he trimmed from the definition of assault: > [@his link](#): > > (c) while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, he accosts or impedes another person or begs. Got that? His link specifically includes how carrying a weapon can turn into assault, but he took that off, because it doesn’t apply to the situation at hand. Blatantly dishonest use of his cites? Yeah, good show. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/510 "2013-03-10T02:47:50Z")
And from later in his own cite: > [@](#): > > Another problem involving the use of words is the question of “conditional assault”. If one person points a gun at another and says, “Your money or your life!”, it might be argued that it is not an assault because the plaintiff may avoid any harm by complying with the condition and parting with the money. It could be contended that the requirement of immediacy is absent. Such an argument is fallacious, however, for one cannot impose conditions upon another, when one has no legal right to do so. It would be otherwise if a landowner said to a trespasser, “Get off my land or I’ll throw you off,” for in such a case, the landowner is only threatening to do that which the landowner is entitled to do Emphasis added. So I’ll cite, for my previous statement about what constitutes a threat, his cite. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/511 "2013-03-10T03:18:24Z")
Hell, **solosam** , [let’s bring it home.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16082503#post16082503) ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/512 "2013-03-10T08:23:26Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > And telling that my previous statement about heroes was ignored. Each and every time I’ve been startled, cursed, grabbed or followed a hero has stepped in to help. The people who ran to help when that guy grabbed me in the parking lot were all three men. Each time I’ve had the occasion to ask a security guard to escort me to my car, each time I’ve asked my significant other to help me get rid of a persistent and offensive suitor: that hero has been a man. Sometimes I asked a man for help, sometimes that male hero was observant and saw someone in trouble and stepped in without being asked. The police officer who gave me my first can of pepper spray and some self-defense tips: a man. My dad, my wonderful ex-boyfriend, my husband: all heroes who would rush to help anyone in trouble, all men. The hero is much more common than the rare creep. But being treated like a creep is more common than being treated like a hero, is the point of the thread. You seem to bbe under the impression that being expected to endanger oneself for others is some sort of privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/513 "2013-03-10T08:33:20Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > But being treated like a creep is more common than being treated like a hero, is the point of the thread. You seem to bbe under the impression that being expected to endanger oneself for others is some sort of privilege. I’d say that while being treated like a creep is sadly more common that being treated like a hero, being treated like a nonissue is far more common than both. I’ve chaperoned a camp for 6th graders, I’ve been trusted – nay, commanded – to be in the bathroom with underage boys (stalls and urinals, not a family restroom obviously) to make sure they didn’t hurt themselves or do something stupid. I’ve been alone with single kids and groups of kids at the request and command of female chaperons and people in positions of power. Children like me (for some reason), and people trust me with their kids. Yeah, it would be hard to convince strangers to let me babysit for them, but in my family I’m the “go to” person to watch the kids while the other adults do adult things because I love playing with kids and they have fun with me. Whenever I’m in a position of responsibility over kids, I almost **always** get singled out by the group to be the one to be with the kids and interact directly with them the most because children are drawn to me (and I’m very nonthreatening), and parents usually seem very grateful about my interactions with their kids. Yeah, men legitimately face issues with being labeled a creep by strangers – both when it involves kids and women in strange places. It is a prejudice that certainly exists, is more common than it should be, and needs to be changed, but it’s not some overarching looming factor that dooms all men to be walking on a minefield anytime a child or woman is within 500 feet. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/514 "2013-03-10T09:13:51Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > So there’s some “stats” for ya. My tendency to place myself in unsafe conditions by running and hiking in odd hours and remote locations and one foolish decision as a teen caused me to experience four very real and frightening attacks by men. I didn’t report a single one of them. That cancel out any of your fears of being falsely accused? If I were you, I’d set up a poll asking how many women have been sexually assaulted and did/didn’t report the act. You’ll probably find that many modern women consider sexual assault an assumed risk and do the best they can to learn from it, cope with it, and move on without involving the authorities and lenghty court procedures. We already have such polls, the British Crime Survey, and there are analogous BJS reports in America, don’t rely on crimes being reported but survey a random sample of the population to get anonymous representative data. That’s the reliable way to get rape stats, not relying on police reports, not relying on feminist advocacy research, not relying on anecdotal evidence. [http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/criminal-justice/sexual-offending-statistics](http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/criminal-justice/sexual-offending-statistics) The BCS shows that over half of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police, and that about one in every two hundred women has been the victim of such a crime committed by a stranger since the age of 16. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/515 "2013-03-10T09:51:09Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Blindboyard. Please post the source of your statistics. I’ve watched plenty of MRA videos and read their blogs. They quote these figures **all the time** and the best I’ve ever heard is something impossible to find like “a study done in Peru.” > > I’m not saying your statistics are false, I’m not saying you’re wrong. They may very well be legitimate, current statistics that aren’t as well publicized as they should be. Like it or not, the “feminist” statistics are the accepted facts and very easy to find sources for, so unfortunately the burden of proof is on you to provide your sources. Feminist stats are normally quite difficult to find sources for, other than one website citing a book citing another book citing a study that says nothing of the sort. The Woozie effect. > [@](#): > > Men are the victims of non-sexual violent crime more than women are easily found by a cursory look into FBI or DOJ crime statistics, so I don’t have a pressing need for those. Specifically, I really want to see the source of the analysis that criticizes studies about rape victims for including those that do not consider themselves raped, I’m specifically thinking of the Koss study. I can’t find a like to the study, but it asked a number of questions, one of which was whether the respondent was “definitely raped”. A rather large majority of those declared rape victims by the study answered no to that question. However, while I once read the study I can’t find a like to it now. There’s an anti-feminist academic look at it [here](http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html) (actually calls herself a feminist, but most feminists disagree). > [@](#): > > and the exact sources of statistics that include “male prison rape, sexual abuse of boys, and 10-25% of normal rapes against men” For prison rape, I was thinking of the famous Human Rights Watch report “No Escape” (available [online](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/) now), and of [this study](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2122802) showing the most frequent perpetrators to be guards, and of guards female guards. Not strictly relevant, but there’s a particularly nasty tendency to act like prisoners somehow deserve to be raped, or are all just animals going around raping each other. Ironically, the study shows that it’s only in female prisons that inmates make up the majority of victimisers of inmates. Anyway, the HRW report shows the total number of prison rapes of men to outnumber all reported rapes outside prison. For child abuse I mostly source from the Canadian government report “The Invisible Boy”, available [here](http://www.canadiancrc.com/The_Invisible_Boy_Report.aspx). It cites studies for all its claims. [RAINN](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims) says one in ten are men, the 25% was from a British source I can’t find now. But the CDC in [this report](http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf), which attracted a lot of MRA interest, finds unusually high levels of rape of women, and unusually low rates of rape of men, but got the attention of MRAs because it also included those men who were victims of “forced rape” (not forcible rape), that is being forced to penetrate the perpetrator or a third party, and found men being forced to penetrate someone to be as common as women being raped. So that would be 50%, if we rely on the CDC and if we regard being forced to have sex with a third party as being just as rapey as being forced to have sex with a rapist. I’d provide links to things like rape in war being more common on men too, but I’m too lazy to do so unless asked. > [@](#): > > and show it to be much different from the “conventional” statistics (and I am aware of the FBI’s unbelievably shitty definition of rape – I assume this is not the sole source of the problem and goes beyond that). A simple news article or MRA blog post **will not do** unless it either has a link to or a direct, complete citation of the study, poll, or journal that the statistics come from. > > I’m willing to believe you if you can do this, but I’m getting unbelievably annoyed by my inability to find the sources of commonly quoted statistics and studies from MRA folks. (It’s partially a peeve of mine, my mom will always say things like “but all the studies say…” to support some weird implausible advice she heard and I tend to be incredulous until I know exactly what “studies” these actually are). Lay 'em on me, chief, I’ll see if I can find some. I’m no master researcher, but I’ve accrued a certain number of seemingly reliable studies on certain aspects of the MRA, discrimination in the workplace, female privilege in schools, whatever else. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/516 "2013-03-10T10:30:14Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I’m sure they are imagining a nice man in the library, walking up and gently tapping **Troppus** on the shoulder with a polite, “Pardon me, ma’am.” Out of nowhere, shebeast **Troppus** whirled around, unleashing a stream of bear mace directly into the kind man’s eyes, while simultaneously burning her bra. > > Here’s the thing, I’ve had enough guys yank me pretty goddamned violently by the arm after I ignored them to know exactly what type of encounter she’s describing there. I, too, have been yanked, pushed, and threatened for not returning a dude’s misplaced advances. In the best cases, they usually just call me a fat bitch for ignoring them, in the worst, they get genuinely offended and try to intimidate me by grabbing me and shouting shit like, “DON’T IGNORE ME!” > > My experience is not unique. Not in this thread. Not on this board. And not in this world. But hey, if I carry pepper spray to protect myself, I am due a beating by a man for insulting him and making _him_ feel unsafe. Yet no alternatives have yet been presented as a means for us to protect ourselves. It’s REALLY fun when some clueless creeper makes a point of coming around to your job and asks when your shift ends, because he has plans for the two of you afterwards. Some men think that they are entitled to a woman’s attention if they are interested in her, even if all she wants to do is do her job. In every job that I’ve had as a cashier or clerk, there were men who thought that if I smiled at them, and was pleasant to them, that I was interested in going out with them or having sex with them. In some jobs, I could stay in the box office or behind the deli counter. In other jobs, though, if I was not physically separated from the customers, I’d always have some guys who didn’t understand that it wasn’t OK to drape an arm over my shoulders, or pinch my butt, or otherwise ignore my desire to not be touched. I’ve only known one woman who worked with the public who didn’t have this happen to her…she weighed about 450 pounds, and was mentally challenged. I’ve talked to a lot of other women who have worked with the public, and every one has had similar stories. Yes, these men are in the minority, but apparently there are enough of them around, or they are active enough, that every woman gets more of this attention than she wants. Some guys don’t know about boundaries. And some guys don’t care. The thing is, it’s impossible to tell which guys are going to take no for an answer, and which won’t, just by looking at them, all we have to go by is their behavior. And a person who grabs someone’s arm and starts yelling at that person is probably not going to respect a polite request to cease and desist. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/517 "2013-03-10T10:41:00Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Yeah, men legitimately face issues with being labeled a creep by strangers – both when it involves kids and women in strange places. It is a prejudice that certainly exists, is more common than it should be, and needs to be changed, but it’s not some overarching looming factor that dooms all men to be walking on a minefield anytime a child or woman is within 500 feet. I agree. I don’t let it keep me entirely away from women, like CCitizen does. It’s more like driving while black, you’re not going to let it stop you driving and as a disadvantaged group you’ve got bigger problems. But it’s important too. There’s already a much larger level of discrimination against men going into female-dominated occupations than vice-versa, and those two factors will certainly reduce the number of men going into teaching, and female teachers give male students lower marks and retard the development and achievement of male students. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/518 "2013-03-10T16:49:40Z")
I’m still waiting to hear what alternative you guys suggest from **Troppus** since she can’t use pepper spray because it makes men feel unsafe and want to attack her in self defense because she’s holding it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/519 "2013-03-10T17:30:42Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I’m still waiting to hear what alternative you guys suggest from **Troppus** since she can’t use pepper spray because it makes men feel unsafe and want to attack her in self defense because she’s holding it. No-one has suggested she can’t use pepper spray to defend herself. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/520 "2013-03-10T18:58:35Z")
You’re just drawing your own conclusions as to when the situation crosses the threshold into it being appropriate to use force to defend yourself. You argued earlier that a man chasing after her, yelling, and grabbing her body didn’t constitute a threat. You later agreed that what she had done was appropriate. That’s great and all that you acknowledge it, but she doesn’t need your permission or assessment of when it’s appropriate to defend herself. That’s part of the problem. She has to trust her own judgment, not your retroactive twisting of words to make it sound like she behaved rashly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=27)