# Guys and creepiness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716 "2013-03-01T12:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/541 "2013-03-11T02:01:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > We are discussing the treating of men in general as a threat. I am trying to describe what _actually_ constitutes a threat, and what doesn’t. > > This thread isn’t about **Troppus** being attacked, or about any actual attacks - it’s about all the times people who _aren’t_ threatened or attacked still feel the need to “defend” themselves against ordinary, unthreatening people who just happen to have a penis. As I said earlier, I carry pepper spray pretty much everywhere I go, force of habit. I was glad to have it during the Christmas holidays when we had a rash of purse snatchers who were violently shoving people to the ground and stealing purses and shopping bags before driving off. Most who were charged were women. Women who lack penises. Is it okay to guard against them? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/542 "2013-03-11T02:13:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, never said that. I said following, touching your arm, and speaking to you is not a threat. Do you see the distinction? It sounds like you, and others, do not. > > I have said, many times, that one may respond to an actual threat. What you, and others, want is the right to pre-judge who may become threatening, and act on that. It’s not the same thing, it’s not acceptable, and it probably constitutes an illegal attack in some cases. > [@Steophan](#): > > We are discussing the treating of men in general as a threat. I am trying to describe what _actually_ constitutes a threat, and what doesn’t. You mean like when you changed the words and told us all what **Troppus** described happening to her was not a threat? No one is saying they’re going to act on a non-threat. We’re basically arguing about varying definitions of what constitutes a threat, and how that definition is different for women than it is for men because we are more likely to be victims of sexual assault. The women here take precautions, such as carrying non-lethal weapons to defend themselves in the event of an attack. Apparently you believe that holding it in such a fashion where it would be easily accessible in the event of an actual attack is too threatening for you to handle, though. The thing that is most annoying is the fact that you feel the need to school a bunch of women on what is, or isn’t, a threat to their safety. You, the same guy who said that rape was so unlikely that we should just stop being worried about it and move on. Yeah, probably I won’t take pointers from a guy who thinks being worried about rape is unnecessary to tell me what is and isn’t an actual threat to my body and when I can or can’t respond to that threat. Pointers that differ, in fact, from what [actual law enforcement provides](http://beatricedailysun.com/news/local/police-chief-shares-safety-tips-with-women/article_f2b108b8-def4-5bb9-9c98-fa04d21f1411.html). I think I can deduce that on my own and prepare and respond accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/543 "2013-03-11T04:48:45Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > What a strange thread. I wouldn’t turn my back on it in an elevator, that’s for sure. Thread be crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/544 "2013-03-11T05:15:25Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > You mean like when you changed the words and told us all what **Troppus** described happening to her was not a threat? > > The thing that is most annoying is the fact that you feel the need to school a bunch of women on what is, or isn’t, a threat to their safety. \*\*You, the same guy who said that rape was so unlikely that we should just stop being worried about it and move on. \*\*Yeah, probably I won’t take pointers from a guy who thinks being worried about rape is unnecessary to tell me what is and isn’t an actual threat to my body and when I can or can’t respond to that threat. Pointers that differ, in fact, from what [actual law enforcement provides](http://beatricedailysun.com/news/local/police-chief-shares-safety-tips-with-women/article_f2b108b8-def4-5bb9-9c98-fa04d21f1411.html). I think I can deduce that on my own and prepare and respond accordingly. (Bolding mine). And you write that after accusing me of twisting people’s words? Your hypocrisy is outstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/545 "2013-03-11T06:06:49Z")
Well, what do you _expect_ her to say, after you admitted to being a former KGB executioner, and her being a self-described retired South African Apartheid Enforcement Officer and all? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/546 "2013-03-11T08:24:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, what do you _expect_ her to say, after you admitted to being a former KGB executioner, and her being a self-described retired South African Apartheid Enforcement Officer and all? Finally, someone understands me! ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/547 "2013-03-11T09:54:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There are slightly under 200,000 sexual assaults reported per year in the US. Are you seriously claiming that a third of sexual assaults are stranger rapes? That’s not even remotely credible. > > If your figure includes all sexual assaults committed by people that the victim hasn’t known for long, such as date rape (which is not stranger rape), and other assaults by short-term acquaintances, it’s possibly believable. > > Surveys that include unreported rapes suggest that about 2% of rapes are by strangers. If you want cites, go to Wikipedia and follow the links. It seems like every few months people post a load of bullshit about sexual assault, and I’m one of the few people who actually look at the figures. I hate doing it, it makes me feel sick, mainly because of the realisation of how many people are abusing their partners, friends, and children in their care. **Hardly any of them, though, are attacking strangers.** > [@Steophan](#): > > Be aware of your surroundings. Avoid places that are to crowded, too empty, or too dark. Don’t carry too much cash. Don’t show off valuable items, such as jewelry or phones. Don’t fight back. > > **Or, insure your stuff, and stop worrying.** > [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I’d say actually worrying about dying in a house fire is absurd. Do the sensible things you can do to avoid it, mainly installing smoke alarms, **and then stop worrying.** > > Do you think people should be checking every heating and electrical connection obsessively before they go to bed, and every time they get back to the house? \*\* Because that would be the equivalent to the level of caution you’re advocating about stranger rape.\*\* > [@Steophan](#): > > I’ll do my best to answer this honestly. If you are in fear of attack, and it makes you more comfortable to do so, then yes, I guess it’s sensible. However, I’d question a couple of things. \*\*The first is whether having that fear and acting on it still makes you less comfortable than realising how unlikely it is that something will happen, and only getting your keys or pepper spray in your hand if you perceive a specific threat. For me, if something is extremely unlikely, whilst I might prepare for it, I won’t have it regularly in my mind - or if I do, I’ll be aware it’s irrational. > \*\* > The second is that you having a weapon could turn a non-violent attempt at a street robbery - something that’s far more likely to happen than a stranger rape - into a violent confrontation, and one that, even with pepper spray, could leave you in a worse position than if you’d simply been robbed. Having the weapon in your hand, ready to use, could prevent you from making the safest decision in that circumstance. > > In short, my opinion is that, unless the walk to your car is unusually dangerous, carrying keys and pepper spray like that is not the best option. > > I will add that simply carrying them as you go about your business is far less likely to be perceived as a threat or insult than the situation in the elevator **Chimera** described, where it was overtly directed at him. Bolding mine. Stranger rapes, hardly anyone is doing them. Having fear of them is irrational. I can’t imagine why I would have accused you of saying that women should quit worrying about it because it’s an unlikely event. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/548 "2013-03-11T10:54:24Z")
**Ted Bundy** : good-looking guy, smooth social skills. Flashed his pealry whites and baby blues and talked women into incredibly risky situations. Rapist penis ensued. **You** : One of those 80% of men who were rated below 50% handsome by the women on OK Cupid; a basic schlub who just wants to get through his day without being falsely accused of being a terrible, terrible person. So it really doesn’t “hurt” us that women see us as potential rapists, since that’s just the extreme end of them saying they don’t want to date us. For those of us who _aren’t_ rapists, “You might be/probably are a potential rapist,” is just part of the big bag that includes “my ex was a jerk so you are too,” “all men are either jerks who cheat or losers who can’t bring in a steady paycheck,” etc, etc. I wish there were an equivalent to pepper spray I could pull out to defend my dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/549 "2013-03-11T11:03:06Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Bolding mine. Stranger rapes, hardly anyone is doing them. Having fear of them is irrational. > I can’t imagine why I would have accused you of saying that women should quit worrying about it because it’s an unlikely event. I did say that. What I also said, and you’ve repeatedly ignored, is that rape and sexual assault are disturbingly common, and the vast risk comes from those you already know. So no, I didn’t say rape is nothing to worry about. I said stranger rape is rare enough that you shouldn’t live your life in fear of it, but should take basic precautions to minimise your risk, then get on with your life. If it makes you happier to ignore the more likely threat and keep insulting innocent people, that’s up to you. As long as you stay within the law and don’t threaten people. It’s still ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/550 "2013-03-11T11:09:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I did say that. What I also said, and you’ve repeatedly ignored, is that rape and sexual assault are disturbingly common, and the vast risk comes from those you already know. So no, I didn’t say rape is nothing to worry about. I said stranger rape is rare enough that you shouldn’t live your life in fear of it, but should take basic precautions to minimise your risk, then get on with your life. > > If it makes you happier to ignore the more likely threat and keep insulting innocent people, that’s up to you. As long as you stay within the law and don’t threaten people. It’s still ridiculous. Here’s the problem with contrasting the two statistics: it means exactly zero to me in that situation. I am standing in a dark parking garage, the thing on my mind is **not** “I probably shouldn’t worry that much, after all, I am much more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than I am by a stranger”. I do **not** think, “Good thing I am not a man, because statistically I am more likely to be violently assaulted if I were”. I think “a large proportion of stranger rapes occur in parking garages. I’m going to hold my pepper spray”. Pointing out in a dangerous situation that there are other, more dangerous situations is less than useless because it _doesn’t mitigate at all the risk I have in that very moment of the thing I am concerned about_. Holding pepper spray is a basic precaution. It is not insulting to anyone, and it’s not a threat to anyone _unless you plan to attack me_. You can think it’s ridiculous if you want, but again, _you’re not the one that has to be concerned with the risk at that moment_, and it’s exceedingly patronizing to feel like you are more qualified to assess the risk than the woman in the situation itself. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/551 "2013-03-11T11:33:24Z")
Your’e holding that pepper spray in the parking garage against the _possibilities_s, not the _probablitilites_. So statistics don’t matter. Of course, all the women who are defending that right, men’s fragile egos be damned, in this thread are paratrooping into the “Boyfriend’s failure to commit” thead to defend the boyfriend’s protecting himself from the _possibility_ of eventually being dragged through divorce court, losing half his shit, not getting to see his kids, being accused of pedophilia to leverage higher child support, etc. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/552 "2013-03-11T11:39:06Z")
Uh, what? I just scrolled through that thread looking at usernames, and I only counted one person who has been active in both. What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/553 "2013-03-11T11:45:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I did say that. What I also said, and you’ve repeatedly ignored, is that rape and sexual assault are disturbingly common, and the vast risk comes from those you already know. So no, I didn’t say rape is nothing to worry about. I said stranger rape is rare enough that you shouldn’t live your life in fear of it, but should take basic precautions to minimise your risk, then get on with your life. > > If it makes you happier to ignore the more likely threat and keep insulting innocent people, that’s up to you. As long as you stay within the law and don’t threaten people. It’s still ridiculous. Where did you get that anyone is ignoring the more likely threat? Serious question. Do you think it’s an either/or - protect yourself against strangers or against people you know, not both? Also, since I have been raped by a stranger, am I allowed to be extra-careful? Those stats that show 1 woman in 200 has been raped by a stranger seem in the right ballpark to me, as long as you’re quite strict about the definitions of stranger and rape, but that still means that, in a large company, several women there will have gone through it. Sexual assault by a stranger is so common that any stat lower than 80% would be suspicious. I’m including groping as sexual assault, and that simply is really common in clubs and bars and even on public transport or the street. Hell, my 14-year-old daughter has already experienced it, and she doesn’t go to clubs or bars or do anything high-risk at all. Simply walking home from a friend’s house on a crowded street in daylight is a risk. It’s not rape, but it’s extremely unpleasant and can be terrifying if accompanied by a realistic threat of more happening. These are NOT events so rare they’re not worth worrying about. Holding pepper spray is not an over-reaction, especially in locations that are higher-risk. Still don’t know why you keep changing pepper spray to a knife or gun. Men can use pepper spray too, and probably should carry it in areas of high risk to them. And you can’t kill someone with pepper spray unless maybe you held someone down and forced it down their throat, which I think we would all agree is assault. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/554 "2013-03-11T11:46:50Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/555 "2013-03-11T13:53:01Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Your’e holding that pepper spray in the parking garage against the _possibilities_s, not the _probablitilites_. So statistics don’t matter. > > Of course, all the women who are defending that right, men’s fragile egos be damned, in this thread are paratrooping into the “Boyfriend’s failure to commit” thead to defend the boyfriend’s protecting himself from the _possibility_ of eventually being dragged through divorce court, losing half his shit, not getting to see his kids, being accused of pedophilia to leverage higher child support, etc. I haven’t read that thread. From the title, I thought it was a relationship thread from someone fairly young. It also sounds like it’s completely unrelated to this thread, even from your description. If I defend my right to be wary of strange men, how does that equate to me being obliged to post on something totally unrelated? Are the men on this thread also obliged to post on that one, or just the women? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/556 "2013-03-11T14:10:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If it makes you happier to ignore the more likely threat and keep insulting innocent people, that’s up to you. It’s clear that **Chimera** was insulted by elevator woman’s display, and you are insulted by the idea of a woman carrying pepper spray in her hand. But I don’t understand why. If I were in his place, I’d assume that a woman holding pepper spray had a fearful nature, had a previous bad experience, or was taking proactive measures to ensure her safety in an unsafe location. Most men I see running or on bikes have pepper spray and I don’t take it personally. Why is it personal for you? Is it personal because you want to keep your options open to start a conversation with attractive strangers? Is it because you subscribe to the MRA belief that men are losing power as women gain equality? Is it because you, personally, would never harm anyone and resent being profiled? I really don’t get what’s “insulting” or why you are attacking me (or rather, attacking women who carry pepper spray). Why not attack public safety officers, the media, or the manufacturers of pepper spray? Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’m assuming that it’s because you want to feel at ease approaching attractive strangers and are discouraged by the presence of pepper spray. When I’m running or hiking lots I see a lot of friendly people, often the same people over and over. Sometimes we say hi or share a little bit of small talk, but everyone keeps moving and those who are clearly there for recreation don’t often attempt to steer anyone off the trail for in-depth conversation. It’s no different from small talk in the grocery: people are there to perform a function, and if it’s convenient to talk: we’ll do so. Thing is, the park, while it may be full of healthy, attractive, friendly people: is not a bar. (Neither is the elevator) It doesn’t happen often, but whenever anyone attempts to interrupt my run or hike and start a conversation or asks me personal questions, I’m alarmed and uncomfortable. The person stopping me may have come to the park to meet people, but those of us in running or hiking clothes who are obviously in pursuit of physical recreation are the least receptive to pick-up attempts. If the pepper spray in my hand or strapped to my wrist in any way discourages strangers from stopping me for conversation or flirtation: then it’s doing half the job I want it to. If it’s presence indicates that I’m willing and able to stop unwanted attention, that’s exactly what I’m going for. Is that what is so insulting? That you feel that since I’m in a public location, that I should welcome unwanted attention from strangers? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/557 "2013-03-11T14:17:49Z")
I will explain it to you as carefully and as simply as posible:woman doesn’t want to go into a strange, posible violently dangerous place without protection. Everyone respects her choice, and (mainly women) are righteouslyoffended by anything suggestive of “oh, she’s just a chickenshit little girl.” man doesn’t want to get into a possibly legally dangerous relationship. (Mainly women) post in with “oh, he’s just a chickenshit little boy.” Probably why ther’s never been effective laws written to prevent goring of oxen. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/558 "2013-03-11T14:28:11Z")
Yeah, I’m still not seeing a) the paratroopering of women from this thread to go over there and be hypocrites, and b) what in the blue hell that thread has to do with this one. Maybe you can keep them organized in your head by keeping them separate and not dragging whatever chip on your shoulder you have from that one over here and making a bunch of shit up ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/559 "2013-03-11T14:28:57Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > I will explain it to you as carefully and as simply as posible:woman doesn’t want to go into a strange, posible violently dangerous place without protection. Everyone respects her choice, and (mainly women) are righteouslyoffended by anything suggestive of “oh, she’s just a chickenshit little girl.” > > man doesn’t want to get into a possibly legally dangerous relationship. (Mainly women) post in with “oh, he’s just a chickenshit little boy.” > > Probably why ther’s never been effective laws written to prevent goring of oxen. But it’s easy to avoid a possibly legally dangerous relationship. You spot a woman holding pepper spray: avoid her. She’s made it clear that she isn’t interested in any degree of relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/560 "2013-03-11T14:33:32Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Yeah, I’m still not seeing a) the paratroopering of women from this thread to go over there and be hypocrites, and b) what in the blue hell that thread has to do with this one. Maybe this is one of those “the fact that [liberal/conservative] posters have not complained about this obscure news article yet proves that they are hypocrites!” things, in which everyone in here is supposed to proactively go into that thread and support the man, in order to be consistent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=29)