# Guys and creepiness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716 "2013-03-01T12:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/561 "2013-03-11T14:40:15Z")
Nevermind. Not going to perpetuate this dumb hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/562 "2013-03-11T15:11:28Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Yeah, I’m still not seeing a) the paratroopering of women from this thread to go over there and be hypocrites, and b) what in the blue hell that thread has to do with this one. Maybe you can keep them organized in your head by keeping them separate and not dragging whatever chip on your shoulder you have from that one over here and making a bunch of shit up OK, so assuming you’re still open-minded enough that not _every_ argument you engage in _must_ be conducted on _your_ terms, and may only include issues that _you_ deem germain; and you’ve made this _personal_, I’ll offer this: I don’t know if or when it was for you, but I was 8 years old the first time my life was threatened. I don’t mean “I felt scared in a strange place,” but I mean: anonymous phone calls were made to my parents, threatening to kill us all. I mean: cars would slow down as we played in our front yard, and men inside could be heard to say “those are his kids.” But I don’t carry pepper spray, or own a handgun. Everyone I’ve known who was shot owned a handgun. I don’t live in fear. Do you know that little boys are made very, very aware that they can be raped by older boys and strange men? This is especially true for boys who came of age in the 1980’s. And “The Patricarchy” is even more harsh to raped boys than girls. She still gets to be a woman. He is violated every way she is, but is also robbed of his manhood. But somehow the average guy doesn’t cringe whenever he’s alone with a bigger guy. And while I’m dragging in shit that doesn’t have anyting to do with this: those Black guys who were lynched after being accused of rape, or for whistling at white ladies. If you want to throw down the right to be afraid as your trump card, you have to own what fear can lead to. God help the Black guy who got onto that elevator in the 1920’s instead of Chimera in the 1990’s. To you, your opinion is a badge of pride: anyone else’s is a chip on his shoulder. You came here to hector others, not to learn anything. You don’t know, and you don’t care, and I’m not going to convnce you. But other people will read your post and also the post of those who’ve disagreed with you, and they’ll make up their own minds. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/563 "2013-03-11T15:38:01Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > OK, so assuming you’re still open-minded enough that not _every_ argument you engage in _must_ be conducted on _your_ terms, and may only include issues that _you_ deem germain; and you’ve made this _personal_, I’ll offer this: > > I don’t know if or when it was for you, but I was 8 years old the first time my life was threatened. I don’t mean “I felt scared in a strange place,” but I mean: anonymous phone calls were made to my parents, threatening to kill us all. I mean: cars would slow down as we played in our front yard, and men inside could be heard to say “those are his kids.” > > But I don’t carry pepper spray, or own a handgun. Everyone I’ve known who was shot owned a handgun. I don’t live in fear. Ok. So nobody else should carry pepper spray because you aren’t worried anymore? > [@](#): > > Do you know that little boys are made very, very aware that they can be raped by older boys and strange men? This is especially true for boys who came of age in the 1980’s. And “The Patricarchy” is even more harsh to raped boys than girls. She still gets to be a woman. He is violated every way she is, but is also robbed of his manhood. But somehow the average guy doesn’t cringe whenever he’s alone with a bigger guy. Do you see anyone here arguing that raping men is ok, but raping women is not? What on earth are you on about here? > [@](#): > > And while I’m dragging in shit that doesn’t have anyting to do with this: those Black guys who were lynched after being accused of rape, or for whistling at white ladies. If you want to throw down the right to be afraid as your trump card, you have to own what fear can lead to. God help the Black guy who got onto that elevator in the 1920’s instead of Chimera in the 1990’s. What? So if I’m afraid of being raped I’m suddenly on the path to lynching black guys? _What?_ > [@](#): > > To you, your opinion is a badge of pride: anyone else’s is a chip on his shoulder. You came here to hector others, not to learn anything. You don’t know, and you don’t care, and I’m not going to convnce you. But other people will read your post and also the post of those who’ve disagreed with you, and they’ll make up their own minds. Ok buddy. Thanks, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/564 "2013-03-11T15:56:13Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s clear that **Chimera** was insulted by elevator woman’s display, and you are insulted by the idea of a woman carrying pepper spray in her hand. But I don’t understand why. If I were in his place, I’d assume that a woman holding pepper spray had a fearful nature, had a previous bad experience, or was taking proactive measures to ensure her safety in an unsafe location. Most men I see running or on bikes have pepper spray and I don’t take it personally. Why is it personal for you? It’s not common where I am - or if it is, people are discreet enough that it’s not obvious. If you don’t understand why someone is offended at being considered a threat, when they know that they are not, and they know they are doing nothing that could reasonably be considered threatening, I don’t know how to explain it. My problem is the assumption that any place with an unknown man is an unsafe place. It is not, or more precisely is pretty damn unlikely to be, and there is no need to take proactive measures. It’s an accusation of being a thug or a rapist if you do. I can accept that, if everyone does it, it becomes less personal. It’s still unacceptable sexism though. > [@](#): > > Is it personal because you want to keep your options open to start a conversation with attractive strangers? Is it because you subscribe to the MRA belief that men are losing power as women gain equality? Is it because you, personally, would never harm anyone and resent being profiled? I really don’t get what’s “insulting” or why you are attacking me (or rather, attacking women who carry pepper spray). Why not attack public safety officers, the media, or the manufacturers of pepper spray? Well, I certainly have the right to talk to anyone I choose to in public, although in practice I’m not going to. That’s not the way I am, and I can see it making people feel uncomfortable. But it’s not a threat that needs defending against, unless what is said is directly threatening. I _do_ think men are losing power as women gain equality, but that’s a good thing. The problem is, this whole conversation is not about equality, it’s about one gender being allowed to do things the other isn’t - whether that’s threaten people with pepper spray, or talk to random people, or whatever. It’s wrong to act in a sexist way from either side. And yes, I do resent being profiled. That’s the part that’s insulting. As for the pepper spray, I don’t have a problem with people having in on their person, or using it to defend themselves. I _do_ have a problem with it being displayed or worse, held ready for use. That is not a sensible thing to do with any weapon, it’s a threat to people around you, and it will automatically introduce the possibility of violence to any encounter. > [@](#): > > Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’m assuming that it’s because you want to feel at ease approaching attractive strangers and are discouraged by the presence of pepper spray. When I’m running or hiking lots I see a lot of friendly people, often the same people over and over. Sometimes we say hi or share a little bit of small talk, but everyone keeps moving and those who are clearly there for recreation don’t often attempt to steer anyone off the trail for in-depth conversation. It’s no different from small talk in the grocery: people are there to perform a function, and if it’s convenient to talk: we’ll do so. Thing is, the park, while it may be full of healthy, attractive, friendly people: is not a bar. (Neither is the elevator) You’re wrong. I’m quite a private person, and rarely talk to people I don’t know in public. What I want is to go about my business and _ignore_ you, without being considered a threat, and having it made obvious to me that you do so. Sure, you _may_ have the right to, but even if you do, it makes you no less of an arsehole than the person you don’t want talking to you. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t happen often, but whenever anyone attempts to interrupt my run or hike and start a conversation or asks me personal questions, I’m alarmed and uncomfortable. The person stopping me may have come to the park to meet people, but those of us in running or hiking clothes who are obviously in pursuit of physical recreation are the least receptive to pick-up attempts. If the pepper spray in my hand or strapped to my wrist in any way discourages strangers from stopping me for conversation or flirtation: then it’s doing half the job I want it to. If it’s presence indicates that I’m willing and able to stop unwanted attention, that’s exactly what I’m going for. Is that what is so insulting? That you feel that since I’m in a public location, that I should welcome unwanted attention from strangers? “Alarmed and uncomfortable” seems a massive overreaction to someone attempting to have a conversation. I’m assuming you simply mean someone talking to you, not threatening in any way. I could understand being annoyed at someone interrupting your run, and becoming uneasy if they did it repeatedly, but threatening violence because of it? You _don’t_ have the right to use force to stop “unwanted attention”, if you mean that literally and not as a euphemism. You don’t have to welcome it, but you sure as hell can’t literally force someone not to give it. It’s pretty clear that some people are clueless about the effects of their actions on others. The man who thinks he’s just flirting, but is in fact annoying or upsetting someone is probably not dangerous (but of course he may be), but more likely oblivious. Likewise, it’s clear that you don’t understand the effect _your_ actions are having, or possibly don’t care. I don’t know if you’re clueless or malicious, but you’ve strongly suggested you’re willing to resort to violence at the slightest provocation, and I’d consider that dangerous. Do you honestly think you have the right to threaten someone for flirting with you, even if that flirtation is unwelcome? ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/565 "2013-03-11T16:14:16Z")
I did an experiment today. I got in an elevator with a woman, and I was so afraid of being maced that I threw myself against the opposite wall and whipped out my pepper spray. She totally freaked out when she saw my behavior. So, yeah, apparently it’s okay for a woman to be paranoid and irrational, but if a man tries it they run away screaming and probably call the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/566 "2013-03-11T16:19:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I can accept that, if everyone does it, it becomes less personal. It’s still unacceptable sexism though. As I’ve said several times in this thread, we’ve recently had purse snatchers in my area most of whom have been women. If it isn’t sexism to carry pepper spray in the event that a woman (or a dog) might attack, then it isn’t sexism to carry. > [@Steophan](#): > > And yes, I do resent being profiled. That’s the part that’s insulting. You, **Steophan** , aren’t being profiled. Dogs and strangers are. The person carrying pepper spray doesn’t know who you are, doesn’t know your nature, and isn’t required to take the time to get to know you before arming his or herself against a potential threat. I don’t know how many ways I can say “It’s not personal. It’s not about _you_.” > [@Steophan](#): > > It’s pretty clear that some people are clueless about the effects of their actions on others. The man who thinks he’s just flirting, but is in fact annoying or upsetting someone is probably not dangerous (but of course he may be), but more likely oblivious. Likewise, it’s clear that you don’t understand the effect _your_ actions are having, or possibly don’t care. I don’t know if you’re clueless or malicious, but you’ve strongly suggested you’re willing to resort to violence at the slightest provocation, and I’d consider that dangerous. Do you honestly think you have the right to threaten someone for flirting with you, even if that flirtation is unwelcome? Of course anyone can confront me and say anything he or she likes in public, it’s legal. Doesn’t mean it’s appropriate. I can handle unexpected small talk and a compliment gracefully, but if someone corners me and comes on strong, I’m not interested in sparing his feelings, I just want to extract myself from an uncomfortable situation. I know better than to get angry or aggressive in retaliation for being put on the spot; I’m simply not strong enough, aggressive enough, or fast enough to get away with overreacting to the slightest provocation. I’d get hurt. My back up plan if I’m grabbed after declining attention and walking away is just that: a back-up plan. It’s not a gun, it’s not a knife; it’s a non-lethal chemical. If I used it unprovoked, I’d be rightfully charged with assault. So no, I’ve only ever used pepper spray as an absolute last resort. I do understand completely the effects I have when I say “No.” or “I’m not interested.” In my experience, I haven’t been allowed to say no, not interested and walk away without getting a hostile response. Men bold enough to corner me in a non-social venue haven’t been the type to take no for an answer and politely move on. They get _pissed_. I’ve never cussed back, I’ve never done anything but walk quickly away, certainly never pulled pepper spray on anyone who didn’t actually put hands on me, and wouldn’t. That’s not what it’s for. But I’ve been glad several times that I had a back-up plan, which is exactly what a defensive weapon is for. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/567 "2013-03-11T16:47:32Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You, **Steophan** , aren’t being profiled. Dogs and strangers are. The person carrying pepper spray doesn’t know who you are, doesn’t know your nature, and isn’t required to take the time to get to know you before arming his or herself against a potential threat. I don’t know how many ways I can say “It’s not personal. It’s not about _you_.” Sigh. You may carry whatever weapons you wish, just keep them out of sight. Don’t act like me - or anyone - is a threat unless they threaten you. That’s it. > [@](#): > > Of course anyone can confront me and say anything he or she likes in public, it’s legal. Doesn’t mean it’s appropriate. The fact that you see anyone saying something to you in public as a confrontation is very telling, as sums up exactly what’s wrong with your attitude. You are out there looking for a threat, waiting for a confrontation, and I’m sure you’ll find one. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/568 "2013-03-11T16:51:38Z")
Actually, scrap my previous post, please, and explain this one. > [@Steophan](#): > > You’re wrong. I’m quite a private person, and rarely talk to people I don’t know in public. What I want is to go about my business and _ignore_ you, without being considered a threat, and having it made obvious to me that you do so. I’d like the same right to go about my business and ignore unwanted attention, yet you seem to feel strongly that I should politely tolerate flirtation or gracefully allow strangers to corner me. Why the inequality here? Am I expected to be demure and appreciative of male attention because I’m female? Why shouldn’t I have the same “right” as you to go about my business and ignore others? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/569 "2013-03-11T17:18:32Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Actually, scrap my previous post, please, and explain this one. > I’d like the same right to go about my business and ignore unwanted attention, yet you seem to feel strongly that I should politely tolerate flirtation or gracefully allow strangers to corner me. Why the inequality here? Am I expected to be demure and appreciative of male attention because I’m female? Why shouldn’t I have the same “right” as you to go about my business and ignore others? You do have that right. I’m suggesting you exercise it. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/570 "2013-03-11T17:20:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You do have that right. I’m suggesting you exercise it. What do you suggest I do when a strange man rushes me grabs my arm while yelling “Don’t ignore me!”? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/571 "2013-03-11T18:41:36Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > What do you suggest I do when a strange man rushes me grabs my arm while yelling “Don’t ignore me!”? I’m assuming here that “grab” means “attempts to restrain”. That is, at minimum, assault, and is the part of his actions that matters here. Pull your arm away, grab your pepper spray (or other weapon of choice), tell him to fuck off, and if he continues to be a threat to you, defend yourself. He’s basically still a threat unless he makes it very clear he’s not, such as by running off. If he fucks off, go about your day. Either way, report it to the police at the earliest opportunity. What I’ve been talking about in this thread is _not_ how to react to an attack such as this, but how to react in the 99.9% of interactions that are not attacks, and hence don’t require pepper spray, or other weapons. Even if they make you feel uncomfortable or annoyed. Even, unfortunately, if they make you feel scared, if that fear isn’t based on a direct threat. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/572 "2013-03-11T19:51:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As for the pepper spray, I don’t have a problem with people having in on their person, or using it to defend themselves. I _do_ have a problem with it being displayed or worse, held ready for use. That is not a sensible thing to do with any weapon, it’s a threat to people around you, and it will automatically introduce the possibility of violence to any encounter. This is where I differ. Pepper spray, for the vast majority of occasions, is non-lethal and used to buy time for a getaway. While I understand where the law can stand on the issue, so far as the intentions are served by the public, I can think of an infinite number of more threatening weapons to have in line of view. I’m all for citing a technicality here and there, but that can also devalue greater or more important issues. That said, I have absolutely no issue with the way **Troppus** keeps her spray, making it readily available. It’s a non-specific threat, where she has it on her person, but only as a deterrent. That’s very smart and something I’d advise of my SO and friends, alike. There is little question when it comes to their personal safety, but as with anything, we have to understand that we can/will be held responsible for our actions. In fact, this thread has prompted me to go purchase some for my SO-- go figure.🙂 The elevator lady is a bit different, in that the spray wasn’t already in her hand upon entry-- this is significant. I’m fine with moving to the other end of the elevator, as that’s standard etiquette for most, but it’s a bit more biased, because the spray was withdrawn as a direct response to the _other_ person in the elevator (if I’m interpreting correctly). That, to me, says you’re profiling, and in past experience, similar situations have been linked to more than gender, and those certainly didn’t feel good. I’ve seen women carrying spray before, and it doesn’t draw any extra concern, since it’s a general caution and not one directed at me. That little bit of difference says a lot, when it comes to non-verbal communication. > [@](#): > > “Alarmed and uncomfortable” seems a massive overreaction to someone attempting to have a conversation. I don’t know if you’re clueless or malicious, but you’ve strongly suggested you’re willing to resort to violence at the slightest provocation, and I’d consider that dangerous. Do you honestly think you have the right to threaten someone for flirting with you, even if that flirtation is unwelcome? Above anything, this thread offers insight into just where people are (or aren’t), located. In New York City, running up to someone and trying to start a conversation is major no-no-- _touching_ them in any way is that much worse, and likely to result in a potential confrontation. The further south you move, the more common it is for people to strike up casual conversation, without having one detect a threat. Personally, I don’t care much for doing so, and I certainly won’t touch anyone in _any_ way. I actually feel **Troppus** went easy in that situation, when it gets down to it. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/573 "2013-03-11T20:33:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s clear that **Chimera** was insulted by elevator woman’s display, and you are insulted by the idea of a woman carrying pepper spray in her hand. But I don’t understand why. If I were in his place, I’d assume that a woman holding pepper spray had a fearful nature, had a previous bad experience, or was taking proactive measures to ensure her safety in an unsafe location. Most men I see running or on bikes have pepper spray and I don’t take it personally. Why is it personal for you? Firstly, people with weapons are dangerous and possibly criminally insane. I don’t exaggerate at all in saying that I’ve never seen anyone carrying a weapon of any kind, with the exception of police with CS gas canisters, and one boy at my school who showed off with a big knife. So if I was trapped in a lift with someone visibly armed, I would be put out. Secondly, if that person was “cowering”, I would assume them to be emotionally unstable and paranoid, and therefore all the more dangerous. Thirdly, if it appeared this women was alarmed because of my conspicuous manliness I would also be resentful of her bigotry against my sex. > [@](#): > > Is it personal because you want to keep your options open to start a conversation with attractive strangers? Is it because you subscribe to the MRA belief that men are losing power as women gain equality? Is it because you, personally, would never harm anyone and resent being profiled? I really don’t get what’s “insulting” or why you are attacking me (or rather, attacking women who carry pepper spray). Why not attack public safety officers, the media, or the manufacturers of pepper spray? You know, I’d probably be more likely to start a conversation with an attractive stranger with pepper spray. It’s a talking point. I could point out how unwise it would be to use it, or advise that it be put away, lest I feel the need to report her to the police for investigation. As an MRA, men are not losing power as women gain equality, rather women already have equality, and more than equality, and this includes the unjust retention of traditional female privileges in addition to at-least-equality in areas which traditionally priveleged men. But that has nothing to do with lift-spray-girl. Obviously police, the media, self-defence instructors, feminists and violence against women advocates, whoever invented that condom-like device with teeth designed to trap rapists, and so on, all profit by fear mongering at women. That’s not an excuse to fall for their rubbish, though. Be a woman, not a little girl hoping to be protected and told what to fear by a band of white knights. > [@](#): > > If the pepper spray in my hand or strapped to my wrist in any way discourages strangers from stopping me for conversation or flirtation: then it’s doing half the job I want it to. If it’s presence indicates that I’m willing and able to stop unwanted attention, that’s exactly what I’m going for. Is that what is so insulting? That you feel that since I’m in a public location, that I should welcome unwanted attention from strangers? To be clear, you’re using the threat of physical harm at the point of your ranged weaponry to discourage attempts at conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/574 "2013-03-11T22:03:47Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’m assuming that it’s because you want to feel at ease approaching attractive strangers and are discouraged by the presence of pepper spray. If by\* “approaching” _you mean_ “get within 100 feet of”\*, then yes. And if by _“presence of”_ you mean _“clutching it and looking at me with hate and fear”._ > [@Troppus](#): > > But it’s easy to avoid a possibly legally dangerous relationship. You spot a woman holding pepper spray: avoid her. That’s nonsense. A woman doesn’t need pepper spray to be “legally dangerous”, she just needs a court system inclined to take a woman’s word over a man’s, or inclined to automatically assume the woman is the victim in domestic violence even if she’s unmarked and holding a shotgun, while the man is dead. Or otherwise biased towards her. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/575 "2013-03-11T22:04:52Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I did an experiment today. I got in an elevator with a woman, and I was so afraid of being maced that I threw myself against the opposite wall and whipped out my pepper spray. She totally freaked out when she saw my behavior. So, yeah, apparently it’s okay for a woman to be paranoid and irrational, but if a man tries it they run away screaming and probably call the cops. I don’t believe you. Not sure why I’m bothering to post though, since I appear to be typing in invisible ink on this frankly insane thread. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/576 "2013-03-11T22:11:36Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t believe you. I doubt **solosam** intended to be taken literally, but was just making a point; namely, that the behavior that’s being portrayed as reasonable for women in this thread would be taken as dangerous paranoid lunacy if a man did the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/577 "2013-03-11T22:44:24Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Firstly, people with weapons are dangerous and possibly criminally insane. I don’t exaggerate at all in saying that I’ve never seen anyone carrying a weapon of any kind… Then it’s safe to assume that you don’t hike, walk, bike, run or otherwise exercise outside on trails or in public parks where loose dogs are a common threat. When and if you choose to exercise outdoors and in public in the States, your advice and experience will have a little more weight. > [@blindboyard](#): > > You know, I’d probably be more likely to start a conversation with an attractive stranger with pepper spray. It’s a talking point. I could point out how unwise it would be to use it, or advise that it be put away, lest I feel the need to report her to the police for investigation. If you started such a conversation with me, I’d encourage you to make that call. > [@blindboyard](#): > > To be clear, you’re using the threat of physical harm at the point of your ranged weaponry to discourage attempts at conversation? To be clear, I wear my pepper spray in an easily accessible location rather than concealed for my convenience, not the convenience of strangers. I frequently chat with other runners and bikers in passing, and the presence of pepper spray in their hands or strapped to their bikes does not deter me from normal conversation at all. But if a stranger notices that I’ve easy access to pepper spray and that deters an unwanted interruption: good. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/578 "2013-03-11T23:17:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I doubt **solosam** intended to be taken literally, but was just making a point; namely, that the behavior that’s being portrayed as reasonable for women in this thread would be taken as dangerous paranoid lunacy if a man did the same thing. Perhaps, but I disagree. Very few people have said that behaviour was reasonable, just understandable, and the same would apply to men. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/579 "2013-03-12T00:11:16Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Obviously police, the media, self-defence instructors, feminists and violence against women advocates, whoever invented that condom-like device with teeth designed to trap rapists, and so on, all profit by fear mongering at women. That’s not an excuse to fall for their rubbish, though. Be a woman, not a little girl hoping to be protected and told what to fear by a band of white knights. I’m suspicious of neologisms in general, and “mansplaining” makes me cringe, but really there’s no other word that so perfectly captures the combination of ignorance and condescension embodied by this quote. Indeed, if anyone ever objects to the term “mansplaining,” I plan to refer them to this post. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/580 "2013-03-12T00:48:43Z")
> [@Krouget](#): > > This is where I differ. Pepper spray, for the vast majority of occasions, is non-lethal and used to buy time for a getaway. Pepper-spraying someone _is_ an act of violence upon them, though, right? Surely all reasonable people agree that it is not justifiable to pepper-spray anyone unless the target has themselves committed an assault, or is _unmistakably_ threatening harm. Right? You can’t drop someone in agony and blindness because you have sort of a hunch, or a personal history that makes you jumpy. Are those not the same terms in which it would be acceptable to defend oneself with another kind of weapon, as well? Is there any situation in which it would be perfectly reasonable to pepper-spray someone, but unacceptable to shoot them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=30)